The Detached podcast
Welcome to the podcast. This is a space where I get to vocalize my thoughts and dive deep into conversations with some truly remarkable individuals. It’s not about surface-level chit-chat—this is where we get into the real stuff. We talk about the things that matter: health, fitness, relationships, and the process of breaking free from the limitations we place on ourselves.
I don’t believe in small talk, because nothing meaningful ever comes from it. So, let's dig deep into the topics that can actually change your life. I want to bring you value, provoke your thinking, and help you see the world differently.
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Sophia
The Detached podcast
EP: 92 From Struggling Teacher to Seven-Figure Entrepreneur: Jamal's Journey
What happens when life throws you a £160,000 curveball in a single day? For Jamal, it became the catalyst that transformed his e-commerce business and ultimately led to a seven-figure exit.
In this riveting conversation, Jamal takes us through his remarkable journey from a stammering student who couldn't afford books to a successful entrepreneur who now coaches others. With disarming honesty, he reveals the seasons of extreme imbalance that entrepreneurship demanded—moments when he was physically present with family but mentally absent, consumed by open loops that wouldn't let him rest until progress was made.
The heart of our discussion explores what true success looks like beyond material achievements. Growing up in an immigrant household where discipline was paramount, Jamal developed an unshakable resilience that would serve him well. He shares how his early insecurities and stutter pushed him toward personal development, spending hours in bookstores absorbing knowledge he couldn't afford to purchase.
Perhaps most fascinating is Jamal's perspective on building businesses while maintaining your humanity. He warns against the dangers of tying your identity too closely to professional achievements—something he still struggles with despite his success. "Keep the world in your hands, not in your heart," he says, reflecting on how money's power over him was revealed during his biggest business crisis.
For anyone navigating the entrepreneurial path, Jamal offers practical wisdom on leadership, marketing, and the uncomfortable truth that building anything meaningful requires periods of serious imbalance. His story reminds us that the greatest success comes not from avoiding failure but from how we respond when it inevitably finds us.
Have you ever considered what you'd detach yourself from to find greater fulfillment? Listen now and join the conversation about building success that matters beyond the bottom line.
welcome back to another episode of the detached podcast. I have an excellent guy on today, jamal. I can't wait to dig in, have a good conversation with you. Welcome on the podcast. It's my pleasure, thank you. So I want to deep dive into who are you today? What defines you?
Speaker 2:Oh, you started off with a really big question. I like it. No wasting time. Who am I? I'm Jamal. In terms of my identity, I wear multiple hats. I would say these are the top themes. I'm a Muslim, I'm a father, I'm a themes. I'm a Muslim, I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a teacher, I'm an entrepreneur, a brother, a son. These are the main themes that dominate my life.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So have you ever found yourself kind of identifying with just one hat a little too much?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think I go through different seasons. Um, there was a period when I, when I got into entrepreneurship, where that's all I did, I wasn't a father or husband anymore. Well, I was, but obviously, but I wasn't like. My family barely saw me for a while, even though I was at home and even though I I was physically there, mentally I wasn't. And so, yeah, I think I've been through different seasons and I used to beat myself up over that, thinking, jamal, you know you should be balanced, uh, where, you know, why can't you give your family the time, give your health the time it needs and give your business the time? And what I've kind of learnt over the years is to be more compassionate, you know, with myself and to kind of know that, hey, if you do want to achieve anything of any meaning or greatness, there will be periods of serious imbalance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's true, like any entrepreneur that I do meet. There is there's no such thing as balance right there isn't but when you just mentioned there that you weren't present during your entrepreneur times, where you've kind of knuckled down, can you like share any of those moments where that was really highlighted that you were not present?
Speaker 2:yeah, uh, one moment that comes to mind and I I think I might have mentioned this in the podcast that you, uh, you, watched. Actually, I mean, like I'd be, you know, sat around the dinner table with my family. We, we, we make it a big deal to have at least one family meal together every single day and I'd be there and they'd be talking, and my mind would just be completely absent and something would come to my eye Jamal, you've got to go do that. There's this thing pending, and if there's an open loop in my head, if there's an open loop about something that needs to be done that will allow me to make progress, that loop just consumes me and and I can't go to bed, I can't do anything until I close that loop. So I might just, you know, dash to the office or might do whatever, but, um, I've tried my best to be there physically, but mentally I'll just be gone completely have you always been like that?
Speaker 2:oh, um. Yeah, it's a blessing and a curse it's. It's a blessing because it allows me to make progress every single day until I close those loops, um. But it's a curse because some nights I can't sleep because I'm just just there just thinking about all of these things ruminating over in my head, uh, but uh, have I always been that way? Um, I have, but I think right now I'm in a different season where I am growing and I've accepted I won't, I won't be balanced. I know that's a myth. Number one and number two I I've learned a lot about systems and teams and and compartmentalization and mental models, that I am a lot more mature and seasoned in my thinking, although there are, of course, still moments where I fall short.
Speaker 1:I think that's a natural thing, especially when you're passionate about something. It's like you just don't switch the off button right, you can't like you.
Speaker 2:Look at people who've done great things Michael Jordan or Thomas Edison or anyone who's done anything great um, they were. They were, you know and I'm not saying it's right but they were dicks for for, for, you know, for certain portions of their life where they've got to just be rude like, just be obstinately passionate about something. Elon musk I read his, uh, biography. He's an awful person, apparently, but all we see is the highlight rows of his life. He's, you know, he's built paypal, tesla, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:But but if you were to actually look into the daily mechanics of what he does, um, there were parts where he was just so stubborn and and and and and not a pleasant person to be around. And I'm not saying that's what you have to be, absolutely not, because I know people who have done great things and they were decent, kind people and that's what I want to be. But what I'm saying is that unless you learn to manage and smooth those edges of stubbornness around yourself, you will be unpleasant as you try and reach your goals, because not everyone would understand, not everyone will appreciate that it needs that kind of ruthless dedication to to achieve something great do you think these unpleasant people who are successful, do you think they're truly happy?
Speaker 2:no, absolutely absolutely not, and I'm deeply aware of that and it's one of my greatest fears, actually, because I look at people who've done great things in life.
Speaker 2:Martin Luther King Jr you know, he revolutionized black America but he was a cheat. He slept with like 40 of his secretaries. I'm like, I'm like I don't want to be that kind of person where where I've got this really successful public life but my private life isn't shatters, um and and you, you look at I would guess obviously I've got no data to back this up, but I would guess that most of these really materially successful people who have millions and billions, their private life is not nearly as successful as their public life and we have learned to put material success on a pedestal. But then there's your average guy who works a nine to five, earns a decent wage and he's not known to the world, but he's a solid husband, a solid father, a solid friend, a solid son, and no one recognized that and I'm like I'd rather have that than the other one. Obviously, ideally, I'd rather have that than the other one.
Speaker 1:Obviously, I'd ideally have both. Do you think you can see, you can understand that you'd rather have this and this with having walked through all the things that you've walked through? You know like when you haven't built anything or you haven't had that success, it's very hard for you to appreciate. You know the basics. So do you think if you haven't done or succeeded all the things that you've done so far, do you think you would appreciate the smaller things?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely not. Because the average Joe I was just talking about, if he were to be materially successful, maybe there'd be a part of him that that that would emerge. That would not, you know, that would not make him as good as of a father and a husband or out. And so I think you have to kind of experience everything to know what your weaknesses are, your strengths are you, your idiosyncrasies. I think building something entrepreneurship is is really just like it's. It peels away all of the layers of you and and the more you kind of ascend to a new level, you realize, hold on all, all of these nooks and crannies. I had in me that I wasn't aware of things that maybe are pleasant, unpleasant, who knows. But I've learned so much about, about myself, you know, just personally speaking, that I never would have uncovered, if I just kind of you know I played it safe in life what was growing up like for you?
Speaker 2:it was largely pleasant. Um, I say that now, uh, things look, you know, things look rosy retrospectively, always uh, but, uh, but I don't have any kind of childhood drama, uh, trauma or anything like that. My dad was extremely strict. He beat us, me and my brothers there were seven of us, four boys, three girls, and he, I think he kind of you know, had to have the, the stern hand. Being immigrants in the UK from Somalia, london crime. You know, unless I keep my, my boys in check, they'll fall off the radar. When you say beat us, you mean physically, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. And and I don't say that to kind of complain, like it was just standard in this day and age and uh, there might be someone watching this thinking, oh, my god, how dare he not like, oh and like in it.
Speaker 2:In the 90s it was standard yeah, yeah, the wooden spoon was over often yeah, well, the belt with the wooden spoon, there was an entire collection of different weapons, but again, like we are in a very different climate now, so I don't want us to latch onto that as if it was like a bit. It was just standard, like all of my friends got beat, like there was no such thing as the NSPCC or whatever those child organizations were. You were to call them, they'd say wait, it's only your dad, yeah. But then my cousin, who's a lot younger than me he's like 15 years younger than me he got beat by his kid, uh, by his mom or dad. I remember, uh, not too long ago, and he picked up the phone because that's where he was taught in school if your parents touch you, you know, make sure you call the police and uh.
Speaker 1:But when I was growing up it was not like whatever, do you think stuff like that might have impacted your future, though?
Speaker 2:How so.
Speaker 1:You know, because if you grow up in a house right where it's pretty strict, do you find it keeps you in line for the future?
Speaker 2:No, no, it all depends on you. Like I've got three brothers and we all got beat to different extents but we've all ended up in different, in different lanes in life and it all depends on how you receive it, how you interpret it. Um, um, no, um, I think I can't say that that had a defining pivotal. You know, like it didn't steer, steer me in either way. I don't see it that way, and maybe it's because I didn't see I don't see it that way that I just went on and and it didn't really affect me, maybe as much as someone else, not sure were you a confident kid when you were younger not at all, no, no did you have many friends?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I was a bit of a joker sometimes, but I had a severe stutter. I still, I still do stammer and stutter, but I've learned how to express myself and manage it in a way that that's, that that's authentic to me now. But in class I, uh, in school growing up, I wouldn't raise my hand in class because I knew I'd start on the word, even though I knew the answer. I was highly studious, very, very academic, very academic, and so, um, I wasn't. I wasn't very good, um, in speaking, but and that really, you know, pushed down on my confidence um, I wasn't good with girls. I never had any girlfriends growing up, none of that.
Speaker 1:I was just very, very, you know, uh, just a very normal kid, uh, but highly academic do you think that lack of confidence has fed as fuel into working on the things that you do right now?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great question. I think all of these insecurities I had, the lack of confidence, all of these things led me down a path in my late teens that I never would have gone down if I had a very, you know, confident upbringing. I threw myself into personal development. I didn't have enough money to buy books, so I'd go to my local Waterstones store. They'd have a nice little sofa.
Speaker 2:I'd go there once a week on a Friday and I'd sit for hours just picking up book off the book, just reading it, and I would do all of these things to try and find new, find an edge, find a way to, just a way to kind of improve myself. Because I knew that, um, the world is not the way. You don't see the world as it is, you see it the way you are, and and. And I saw that in black and white when, when I, when I became a bit more confident and I became a bit more expressive, the world just looked a bit more pleasant and it, it stopped being a threat and it started to be more of a playground, but the world was still the same, but it was the way I showed up and interacted with the world.
Speaker 1:Was there any kind of books that you read during that time that really stood out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, field of Fear and Do it Anyway, by a lady called Susan, something Psycho-Cybernetics that changed my life.
Speaker 1:I had a guy on the podcast who said the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Psycho-Cybernetics, all of the Tony Robbins books, you know.
Speaker 1:He was my first Awaken the Giant, the big red book, though.
Speaker 2:All of them, all of them, and just yeah, just loads Too long, too less, but they all kind of say the same thing. By the way, like I've noticed that because I've read a thousand books, they all say the same thing.
Speaker 1:You only notice that after you've read enough, though.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and they're always coming up with new books every single day. The self-help industry is worth billions, but what I've learned is they have different takes and different stories and they package it in a cool way the five-second rule, or you know Ed Milet's one more, and it's all the same thing. And it's all the same thing. It's all the same thing, but sometimes the way someone might package it resonates with you just that bit more and it shifts the needle in you. So I'm like you know what I get it so you just said self-development industry is worth billions.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it's worth billions now? What do you think is encouraging that?
Speaker 2:I think people are. I think, generally speaking, people do want to better themselves um do you think people are less, less happy they are 100, they are less happy? Uh, for sure. But what makes you ask that question?
Speaker 1:because I feel like the industry that you're in it's ai driven you know, and what's the issue is that which one well, amazon, you know what do you mean by ai driven?
Speaker 1:well, I suggest that you were probably less in contact with people on the ground floor. Right, you're on your laptop a lot, yeah yeah. So people are becoming less connected in person, having conversations in person where hide mine screens. Technology's really growing right, but I think some people forget to have in-person conversations, to be present, and I think that's leading to quite an unhappy future for a lot of people if they don't intervene with self-development yeah, good question.
Speaker 2:Uh, that's a good point. But just to kind of tell you a bit about me, I I chose amazon and e-commerce for for that very reason I have the freedom to spend, but you're no, yeah, you know no, to have a business where I didn't have to talk to anyone, really like that was.
Speaker 2:I wanted a business that that, that didn't need me to have employees. I do now have a large team, but, but when I first got started, it was just me and and I loved it. I loved that I could interact with systems and and tools without having to talk to people and and and so obviously I wasn't just alone. I had my family in life. So I was balanced in. You know, to a certain extent, um, but um, just going back to what, what you were saying, um, there's a very large and growing population of people right now, especially in their 20s and their teens, who, who do live on on their phone and on the laptops and they and and there's a lot of the ai, um narrative and all the all, all the tools coming out is changing faster than we can appreciate its effects, and I think these people in their teens and their 20s.
Speaker 2:I'm deeply concerned for the world because in 10, 20 years time, that's when we'll really see. For the world, because in 10, 20 years time, that's when we'll really see the effects of these kids and and these young adults who spend 8, 10 hours a day on tiktok and and what have you? Just scrolling and just doing, nothing of meaning or progress. And then they go and become. You know, they raise a family or they don't, or they, they, they. They work in a company and I think the world might be heading into a scary place in 10, 20 years what do you think is going to happen?
Speaker 2:I think there'll be fewer families. Um, I think society, the fabric of society, will begin to weaken a lot. I think the divorce rate and the number of you know single mothers and single fathers will just be through the roof. And the reason why I say this first is because I think family is what keeps society intact, and when you have stable family homes with, I think it allows people, it allows society to to function in a much healthier way than not having families around yeah, I often talk about tribal times, like when one is left outside the tribe.
Speaker 1:They don't survive on their own. So it's, I do think we're headed in a I hate to be dark about it, but it is a dark future it is um and and and I think it it it'll only get worse, it'll only get worse, it'll only get worse.
Speaker 2:I was very fortunate to kind of close the whole marriage chapter early on in my life. I got married at 22 and I had my first child at 24 and I'm now 37. But many of my friends who had a cracking time in their 20s doing all sorts of stuff now they want to settle down, but they're struggling. They're really struggling. And even though we are in a time where you can meet pretty much anyone on your phone it's so damn easy to meet people a lot easier than it's ever been in history Yet people just can't seem to connect and commit. It's weird, and I'm not sure if you've seen that in your circles.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it's hard for people to connect? Yeah, because there's so much choice, I think this is the thing it's like when you open up alibaba or aliexpress. Right, you know, you've this overwhelming like field of every product under the sun that sometimes you don't check out because it's like, wow, like what product do you pick? And I feel like humans are becoming like this 100.
Speaker 2:one of my friends was telling me and he's got a large following of ig and he has girls sliding into his dms all the time and he said something which was quite interesting. Um, I don't agree with that one bit, but he said he's at a stage right now where he doesn't even look for a red flag if he's talking to a girl. He looks for a dash of pink and then it's next, next, next, and I think that's the kind of mindset that people increasingly have, where they're not willing to work through issues. If they see something they don't like, move on. Whatever Like, I'll go on to the next one, and we all have red flags. So with that kind of mindset you'll never settle.
Speaker 1:Do you think you should be like this in business also, you know, like avoiding the pink flags or the red flags or do you think you need to see things through in business?
Speaker 2:Oh, in business, you'll have red, red, black, purple flags, the entire lot. So, if you were, um, I was on a coaching call yesterday evening, uh, with a lady called zane and one of my students and we were talking actually, and she goes um, she, uh, she, she. She joined us a few months ago and she joined us over a year ago, but she just went AWOL for a few months and we were talking and she goes life throws all these curveballs. She had all of these medical issues and health issues and we were talking about how, whenever life throws curveballs your way, it's very easy to see that as a sign.
Speaker 2:Maybe this isn't for me, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, maybe it's a sign from the universe that I should pivot and try something else. Or you can see as hold on, how badly do I want it. This is a sign, this is a test of my deep desire, of my resilience and perseverance, and just reframing it that way it allows you to just crack on and and we were able to to get to the understanding that, hey, as long as you're still in the arena of life in business, it's only a matter of time before you are successful. You only fail once you stop doing the thing that you're trying to achieve. So um in business, I see red flags and purple flags and the whole lot every single day.
Speaker 1:What has been the biggest struggle in business for you to date, the biggest struggle in the episode that you had.
Speaker 2:I've been through many big incidents. There were times where I lost a lot of money. There was one example that comes to mind was in 2018 where I lost about £160,000 in a single day because of a mistake someone on my team made, but I told him to do it. So it's my fault, of course, and even if I hadn't, I always try and blame myself what happened. It's my fault, of course, and even if I hadn't like, I always try and blame myself what happened.
Speaker 2:okay, uh, so we uh let people learn from your mistakes no, we'll one, um, but the thing is, it was meant to be an advanced strategy, so it wasn't something that most people, it's not something that most people will even encounter, but I'll share it with you anyway. It was on december 12, on 2018, which is, you know, in 2018, which is a day that has been etched into my memory, um. So basically, um, I, um, we were having a really great christmas. Christmas is where we just print money, and what happened was a few months before then, one of my mentors told me about a strategy called coupon stacking, where you can incentivize your customers to add more to cart and you give them a small discount. So, buy two get 10% off, buy three get 15% off, and so on. Right, so he said, you can set all of these coupons up and this would incentivize them to add more to car. Therefore, there's more money in your pocket and, in return, they get a nice little discount. So I set it all up and all the way from buy two get 10% off, all the way to buy seven or more, get 35% off.
Speaker 2:And when I was setting up these coupons, or when my team member was doing it, there was this choice of making the coupons restricted or exclusive, sorry, unrestricted or exclusive, sorry. Meaning if it's unrestricted, those coupons can be combined. So they can combine all the coupons and get seven or more and pay nothing. So they can combine that discount code with the other one all the way up to 100% or more. Meaning they can get 300 units and not pay a single penny. And I had it on my page on Amazon for a few months and all was good, it was working. But unless they actually type it in and test it they won't know. So nothing happened for a while. After we set it up, lo and behold, there are people out there who look for these loopholes exactly, and someone came across it.
Speaker 2:And not only did he come across this fine gentleman, he blasted it on over a dozen bargain groups on facebook. There's a website in the UK called Hot UK Deals. He put it up on there. So within the space of a day, my entire stock got wiped out by these bargain hunters. I got destroyed and so they took my. They wiped out my entire inventory and on top of that I had to pay Amazon to fulfill all of these orders. So it was a brutal, a brutal day.
Speaker 2:And the the thing is, when it first happened in the first um, I'd check my sales as I do. I don't check it as often now, but back then I was checking out almost every hour, and every time I refreshed the number of sales would go up, because the app doesn't tell you what they actually paid. It tells you the retail price and the number of units until you log onto your dashboard on your laptop. So you're thinking loads of sales are going. I'm like wow, like you know, christ Christmas has come early. I'm like damn, like that's sick. But then, after the number goes to something I've never seen before, I'm like okay, something's up. And then I go onto my laptop and then I see, you know, 50 units paid zero. I'm like what the heck is going on. And obviously now I'm telling you because I was able to figure out what was happening, but we had set up the coupons a long time ago, remember, so I couldn't connect the dots for a while, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1:And how did you feel on that day? Like is it sadness, happiness, angriest, shock. How did you feel?
Speaker 2:It was. I didn't sleep that night, number one, and I had zero appetite. I realised.
Speaker 1:I feel sick thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I realised just what kind of power money had over me. And that's a very hard thing for for me to say, because we all like to make money and blah blah, but, um, we wanna. You know, there's a, there's like a saying in islam that goes, you know, keep, keep the world in your hands, not in your heart. And I think at that time the world was very much in my heart. So and I felt a lot of spite towards the people because I am who were taking advantage of the situation.
Speaker 2:I felt a lot of gratitude towards some people in the forum because I was going through the chat, um, because they were all saying, hey, yeah, I bought you know this number of units and they were taking pictures of all the items that they got and then putting up on on ebay to resell. I'm like that's my product, like what are you doing. But there were some people who, who, who was calling them out, saying, hey, guys, you're acting like vultures. Uh, what are you doing? Like you're like this, this is, this is not normal. And in their defense they thought they were. They were taking advantage of amazon as a corporation, not of just a normal guy like me. So I can kind of understand why they did it, to give them a bit of credit.
Speaker 1:How does that bleed into your efficiency the next day, the following day, the weeks ahead?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm grateful for that incident because, even though I had a seven, a seven figure business at the time, I didn't have seven figures like like uh, in cash.
Speaker 2:I was way, way off now and I think I barely had six figures and but most of it was in the business bank account. So, um, that incident gave me. It was a very hard lesson to uh to, but I needed it because it taught me that business is great. You can make more money than you ever could in your nine to five. However, you are at the mercy of external forces. What if your business gets shut down overnight? What if what just happened to me happens again and I realized that cashing in the bank is a lot better than a business that produces cash flow. So it got me thinking about how can I take some of the risk off the table. So the following year I sold our business for seven figures, and I did have seven figures in the bank account. But I never would have done that if it weren't for that little story I just shared.
Speaker 1:So how do you go from not being able to afford books to a seven-figure business?
Speaker 2:Where do you begin Do?
Speaker 1:we have time. Yeah, where do you be? Do we have?
Speaker 2:time. Yeah, uh, there are so many. There are so many chapters along the way, and I'd love to tell you that it was a very linear path. No, it wasn't. It wasn't uh, because even when I, uh, when I started to afford stuff, there were times where I was still still very tight, where I'd go out with my friends and and I would order what I could afford, and some of them might order steaks and caviar and all these other fancy items, and I'd hope and pray that they wouldn't split the bill because then I'd be screwed. So, even when I was earning, I went through a large portion of my earlier years just struggling, struggling, where I'd be at the checkout counter and I'd be tallying the total bill as I put each item into the cart, and I mean just all of these things that I went through. And so I think I was always hungry. I think I was always always hungry and I believed that I would come out.
Speaker 2:It's a very weird thing to say, but I knew that my story was just taking shape. I genuinely believed that in my heart of hearts, that this is. These would all be good stories to share. And here I am sharing these stories, but as I was living those dark moments if you, if you can call them dark and I always knew that, hey, you know what this would be a good, a good story to share one day. And I didn't see it. As you know what. This is my lot in life. I'm not meant to be that kind of guy.
Speaker 2:Those people are cut from a different cloth. If I, if I was boarding a plane and I'd be walking past all the first and business class seats and I'd see the people sat in those seats you know just lounging I wouldn't think, oh, sat in those seats, you know just lounging. I wouldn't think, oh, you know, those guys are different. You know, I'm sat at the back, all good. No, I'd think, hold on. What makes them so special? Not in a jealous kind of way no, I am far from jealous or a jealous type of person but it was more of an intellectual exercise like, what have they like? They were born in nine months. They're not intellectually superior or anything. What makes them able to do things like that? And I can't, and I'll just so I, these thoughts would always be there in my mind.
Speaker 2:Um so, and and there was one incident I remember when I was in my staff room while I was working as a teacher, and one of my colleagues, a lady called Alison You're a maths teacher, right, I was a maths teacher and I was making myself a cup of tea and she was a lot older than me, I think a good 15, 20 years of me, and she said something really strange that I've never had someone tell me. She walks up to me and says, jamal, I just know that one day you're going to be a millionaire. I'm like what she said yeah, the way your shoulders and I'm like, okay, cool, whatever, and I brushed off. But I think that was because I was reading and and visualizing and I think, even though I was way, way from I wasn't even I was in debt like I was far from being a millionaire, I think in my mind I already was.
Speaker 1:It's like what you just said previously before. It's like you show up and the way you show up is the way you become, you know. So you probably already had that inside you. Showing up, maybe this person, but you weren't fully aware. Aware of it, maybe, yeah. So when you said about self-development and it seems like you're interested in self-development what does that look like for you? Is it just reading books or what else?
Speaker 2:No, no, I really read a lot of books, but books are not just buying books, which I love doing all the time. I've kind of made a rule with myself Jamal you're not allowed to buy any more books until you've read these books at least two or three times, because I'm always buying new books. My Kindle has thousands of books, it's crazy. So what I've learned is buying a book with that dopamine hit that you get doesn't mean you've made progress, it means jackal. And for a period I was kidding myself thinking, hey, behind these books, read the first chapter, jamal, you're done, you're the guy. But it's not the case at all. Sometimes you've got to read books two or three times to draw something from those books and and so, but.
Speaker 2:But books are a big part of my development. One kind of rule I have with myself is um, what is one thing, just one thing, from this entire book. Not two things or five things or ten things, but one thing that you can take from this book and implement, because it's only in the implementation that you actually make progress. And I'm always looking for that one thing. And if you and your brain can, can handle and synthesize one thing, and if you give yourself a target of one thing. As you're reading the book, you'll find that one thing that will move the needle in your life.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you say about buying books and it gives you that dopamine feeling and it makes you believe that you've actually actioned something. I think that happens throughout different facets of your life. I see this even with fitness and health. You know, when someone buys a new pair of runners, they buy their new gym gear and it feels like they've actively done something for their health. They haven't really showed up in the gym.
Speaker 2:They haven't. And we've all been there, right when you want to start a podcast and you end up buying you know like $10,000 worth of cameras and equipment and microphones and they just end up collecting dust. We've all been there because it feels good, like to actually take that first step, but it's only in the showing up and in the grind, which is usually quite unpleasant in the showing up and in the grind, which is usually quite unpleasant in the beginning. But once you get into it, that unpleasant feeling turns into joy and you run a lot. I see your stories and stuff. Now, I'm sure there are moments where you don't feel like it, but at the same time there's a lot of joy that you get from that. Now, I'm sure there are moments where you don't feel like it, but at the same time there's a lot of joy that you get from that that you probably didn't get in the beginning.
Speaker 2:And someone might see your stories after a 10K run and think, yeah, wow, you know I want to do that, but all they're seeing is a small glimpse of a 45-minute run and it's brutal, you know, know, actually running for 45 minutes and and I think social media and and it just makes it seem easy. It makes things seem really, really easy. Building a business working out, getting you know being healthy, relationship goals, and all this. No, these things all take time and they are. And in the actual day to day of doing these things, whether it's building a business or working on your relationships or or whatever um, it's quite muddy, it's quite um, you have to engage with it, um, in a deep way, and sometimes it's just easier to just not bother but do you think that easy option in the immediate sense is going to progress you for your future?
Speaker 1:of course not. Yeah, I don't know, of course not was there ever moments where you take that immediate decision and sacrifice your future self yeah, I do that all the time with food.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you know we're human beings yeah, yeah, um, I do that with, uh, with food all the time. Um, where, um, I've got a big sweet tooth, so I like my, my chocolates and my cakes, uh, but, um, and there are times where I'm like, you know, I'll start tomorrow or whatever. But now I figured out what works for me, which is I don't have any breakfast, I just have black coffee, and then I won't eat till about 2pm, and then, and then, and then in the evening, which is the meal that I look forward to, I always have a little treat and I don't in the evening, which is the meal that I look forward to.
Speaker 1:I always have a little treat and I don't put on weight. Yeah, yeah, I suppose fasting in the morning, then you close the window of actually eating and overeating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and it sounds like a big deal not eating in the morning, but really it's not as bad as it seems and in fact it's a lot sharper. Exactly, you can focus a lot more when you're not digesting all that food, right?
Speaker 1:so, when we talk about health as well, how much of your time spent on the business has sacrificed your potential health, because it sounds like you've been a bit of a workaholic on the growth in your career yeah, um, I've never been overweight as such, but there's been times where I just didn't work out, and I didn't work out because I didn't have the time, or, sorry, I didn't make the time.
Speaker 2:There's always time and and, and I think that's fine. I think there are times where you literally just have to lock in and you close your calendar to everything else because that's what the business needs of you, um, but one thing that I struggle with to this day is sleep. I don't sleep enough, and I've tried the whole whoop thing and the aura ring and all that kind of fancy stuff, but I just don't sleep enough and and I see sleep as a distraction, almost because life is so great. But then I've learned to understand that you want actually to be awake for life and to have a few hours a few hours less of awake time, but you're more present and focused. Few hours less of awake time, but you're more present and focused is a lot better than you know, maximizing all the hours in a day, but I'm still working on it and if you have any tips, I'll take it have you read Matthew Walker's book why we sleep?
Speaker 2:no, I haven't.
Speaker 1:I'll get you that book as a gift to say thank you for being on the podcast no, no, all good, I heard myself it's good, it's brilliant. It's, yeah, it's brilliant. But I noticed when I didn't sleep properly, I started reading that book and then this stubborn person inside me was like put the book down. You know this has got to change your life, but genuinely I feel like sleep is just something you can't like. The difference in your efficiency, your focus, everything, everything After a good night's sleep, it's just yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I know when I've had a good night's sleep I can solve any problem. I can solve any problem. And I realise when I'm low on sleep and someone comes to me with a very tedious problem, it just feels so burdensome and I'm like, don't bother me with this. And I've noticed that sleep, or a lack of sleep, is what signals how I might deal with certain problems.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, Would you say you're short-fused?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. I've got the longest fuse. I know of it in my family. Um, I never, I never raised my voice. Um, I'm, I'm quite um. If I do raise my voice, it's because there's something seriously wrong. Um, but really no, I've got a very long fuse. Um, I'm quite chill. Um, I'm quite direct. Um, and if I, if I don't like something, I'll say it, but I'll say it in a way that is very kind and respectful, even though, even if the content is very sharp and that throws people off sometimes because they might mess up with something, and I'm talking to them in a very, very calm tone, but what I'm saying is very cutting and they're like but shouldn't you be shouting at me? I'm like no, that's not me.
Speaker 1:Has your directness ever got in the way of an opportunity?
Speaker 2:No, quite the opposite. Um, all the shots you don't take. Um, I words at all. Um, I'm very direct. Um, one funny incident was at university and it's kind of of a silly story, but I'll share it anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, I was sat, I was studying for my exams, I was doing my, my masters at the time, and there was a lady sat, a girl sat, in front of me and she was studying as well, and we were both kind of Everyone was doing their own thing, but she had taken off her boots in the library and I could smell her socks and whatever. I'm trying to ignore it. I'm like you know what? Can I move? No, the library's packed out. I'm like bloody hell. So I try ignoring it. I try ignoring it. In the end I'll say, jamal, whatever, you know it's your exam, do what you have to do. So I rip out a piece of paper from my notepad and I say hey, hi, I hope your studies are going well. If you don't mind, could you put your boots back on? And then a smiley face. And then I gave it to her and she read it. She was deeply embarrassed, she put, put a boost on it, I just ran off.
Speaker 1:I like the way you reframe that, though, in a sense that it was like digestible for someone to take on board feedback. You know, as in, if you had a directly said that to her, I'm sure she would have been even more embarrassed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I didn't say you know you smell or no. I said I asked her exactly what I want to and even now in my communication and I've worked on a lot of my communication and one book that really helped me is Principles by Ray Dardio, because he talks about how to communicate by email and face to face. And there's another book called Crucial Conversations, and they talk about how there are certain people who just talk in a certain way and they're able to get people to do things for them and it just really shaped the way I communicate and when I talk I try to remove any of the noise from what I'm asking and remove all the emotions from it, all the emotions and it All the emotions, and just be very, very plain and descriptive as possible. That has really. I think it's one of those things that people don't appreciate I'm doing, because now it's the first time actually I'm talking about it, but it's one of those. We all know what you're up to now. It's one of those it's.
Speaker 1:We all know what you're up to now it's one of my secret weapons, I think.
Speaker 2:Where in email and in communication or whenever I'm, I'm working with my, my team members, you know, I'm just very, very plain and direct and and as concise as possible. I don't try and use big words or I just try and get straight to the core of what it is that needs to get done or I need them to understand.
Speaker 1:I think this is the difference in between an employer and an employee you master the communication, whilst the employee will kind of sometimes fluff around. When you're direct, you're concise with your feedback or how you engineer information, it's different, right? I think that's where you end up being the employer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a good point and, as you were saying that, I'm thinking about some of my employees who might talk about I deserve this or I need this, and I'm like, but these are the terms and this is exactly what we've explicitly agreed on, and they might talk about, oh, but I've been loyal and and I'm like, yeah, that's great and I agree with you, but I I want to look at the objective facts here for a for a second, and and that's one thing that I'm learning to do more and more of as my team grows is just to, because I was an employee and I know what it's like, where you feel like your boss is being unfair, and that's one thing that I don't ever want to be accused of, and that's one thing that I don't ever want to be accused of.
Speaker 2:But in the staff room or as you're chatting with your colleagues about your organization, it's very easy to just bitch and say, oh, you know, I can't believe the boss is doing this or that, or did you see the new card that the boss got? And it's very easy to get sucked in in those conversations. And it's very easy to get sucked in in those conversations, but you don't understand that the boss can't sleep at night because of all the risks that they've got to take to ensure you get paid.
Speaker 2:So I've seen both sides of the equation and now I'm learning to really be as empathetic as possible because they've got bills, really be as empathetic as possible because they've got bills and I've got and like I've got, employees whose mortgage um depends on me showing up and and their and their kids tuition fees and all these other things. So I feel the burden. I feel the burden and I want to make sure that I grow the business for me and what I want to achieve and my vision. But also there are people whose life depends on me showing up as well.
Speaker 1:What makes a good CEO?
Speaker 2:I think it all begins with a clear, a clear vision. A clear vision, a clear vision of exactly what it is that you want to achieve. Not some, some, some pie in in in the sky mission statement that we see on all of these offices um around the world, but just a clear vision. This is what I want to achieve. Uh, what we, what we, we need to achieve, and these are the okrs or the kpis that would mean we've achieved them and and you just spend time in that, in that vision which I've struggled with because I like to do things.
Speaker 2:I'm a builder. I'm not someone who likes to talk or think I like to be in the trenches, but if you're in the trenches, then who's doing all the strategy and the vision? So a good CEO needs to empower his people or her people, and bring on the right people and just let them get on with it. I think that's key just to let go and then you hold them accountable on clearly defined things. That's one thing that, just through coaching and through experience, I'm learning to do more and more of. I'm nowhere near where I want to be, but I'm getting there how important is hiring people, good people it's everything what do you look for an employee?
Speaker 2:an employee, um, an a player. And an A player is someone who because there are some employees or some some candidates who will say all the right things and I've learned to see through that where they might say, oh, I'm going to treat the company as if it's my own and all this kind of stuff, and I used to be mesmerized by that. Oh, yeah, yeah, you know. And then you hire them and they're like what the heck? This guy's a mercenary, so. But I look for a certain attitude that can't be taught and what I do now is you know what? That was a great interview, but I'm not going to believe a word of it. I'm going to hire you and see how it goes.
Speaker 2:I often hire two or three people for the same role. Give them the same kind of job, see who does it best. It's only through the work itself that you can see if they are legit or not, and you can. It's very easy to to woo someone in a one hour or a 30 minute interview and then you give them a you know a job for one or two years based on a 30 minute interview. No, it's like, I think, be slow in hiring and and quick to fire someone if indeed there isn't alignment in culture and I used to hear that word about culture and think it makes zero sense, right, culture? What does that even mean? But now, as our organization is growing, I'm seeing, now I understand how deeply important coach is, because if someone is misaligned in what you want to achieve, it's going to get everyone else misaligned as well what's your purpose for your business right now?
Speaker 2:um, I, we have two businesses, I've got my own brands and I've got my coaching and education programs. So, on the brands, I just want to keep on scaling it and we we look to exit once every three, four years. We've done that twice already, so we we're looking to exit our next brand by the end of this year. On the coaching side, I want to empower people to be financially independent through the power of e-commerce. I think it's changed my life, it's changed the life of my own family members, it's changed the life of so many of my students, and I know what it can do if you're willing to commit to it. So I just want to help people as much as possible with e-commerce. And there was something that you said at one point about you were on with another guest and he said something about what I do and I didn't quite understand what you do.
Speaker 2:No, about the kind do, and I didn't quite understand what you do. No, not about, uh, about the, the kind of industry I'm in. He was giving it a lot of stick.
Speaker 1:One of your, your, your previous guests um, yeah, I actually did have a guy who mentioned. Well, he did say it's not as easy to make as much money as he can make on out of an e-commerce business, and he kind of was shutting it off a little bit. In terms of the growth of AI as well, that's going to sabotage e-commerce business. This is what he had and, to be fair, actually this guy as well oh, I won't get into it. Yeah. What do you forecast for the future for e-commerce business?
Speaker 2:business. It's growing like uh, it's not what I forecast, it's what's actually happening. More and more brands are going online and and there are fewer and fewer brick and mortar stores and and everyone is shopping online now, and there'll be times. There'll be a time in fact, this time does already, has already come for many items but there'll be that you there'll be certain things that you need in your life, whether it's medication or a certain product or whatever it is, and it can only be found online, and this will be more and more the case.
Speaker 1:How important will the product development side of things be now, Because obviously everyone's taking to online like a high-end product. Do you think people are going to search for more high-end products rather than the low-end? What do you see?
Speaker 2:I think you need to have a good product. You can't be selling a dud, as they say in the states, just something that's rubbish, uh. But you, you don't need to have a high-end product. You don't need to have a revolutionary product, that that does things, that that no one else does. No, I think what I've learned after being in this game for close to a decade now is it's all marketing. It's all marketing. You have brands out there selling the exact same product from the same supplier, the same manufacturer, but the way they are marketing it is different. One is making two million dollars a month in sales. The other one is making, you know, just a few thousand dollars a month in sales, but it's, it's the exact same product, but one has packaged it really well. One has told a great story around it. One is spending more marketing and they've gained market share, and I've seen that. And it's all marketing.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, Did you study marketing?
Speaker 2:No, no, but I learned marketing by doing it. We spend close to $10,000 a day on ads for our brands, and it's only. You can learn marketing through a book or through a lecture or course, but when you're putting your own hard-earned money, then you have no choice. Hard-earned money, then you have no choice, like there are certain certain things you will learn through doing the thing and through putting your your money on the table. Then that that you will never learn through some webinar or what have you what's the best marketing strategy for someone who has zero money?
Speaker 2:oh well, organic content, of course. Um what?
Speaker 1:does that look like?
Speaker 2:well, you're the organic queen, aren't you? I'm not very good at some of, uh, you know this whole organic thing. Uh, I'm a paid ads guy. On to the next question then yeah, yeah, but I'm not good at organic content. Um, I try to. I've got a team of two people who do all my organic content and create reels and stuff, uh, but, um, the best type of marketing just as a general kind of theme is is you make an ad that doesn't look like an ad. That's one thing I've learned. Yeah, if you have a, a polished, cinematic feel to your ad and it's very obviously an ad, people will interact with it differently, as opposed to you just grabbing your iphone and and showcasing the product or whatever it is. And having spent money on both types of ads, the ones that always outperform are are the ugly ads. The ones that are are rough around the edges. They blend in with all the other organic content on people's phones and they don't stand out as an ad.
Speaker 1:Okay, good, good answer. So, because it's a detached podcast, what would you detach yourself away from?
Speaker 2:that's limiting you today the need for validation from business success. Um, as I've become more and more successful in business, I'm getting a lot more validation externally and internally about jamal you're the guy, you're, this you know. Well done and it feels good. But it's also also quite worrying because I don't want my identity to be rooted in that, because I'm not just a businessman or an entrepreneur. In fact, that would appear way down the list of the, the kind of person I am and I'm trying to be and I'm battling with this a lot. So I would detach myself from needing you know business and material success to tell me that I'm doing well.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you.