The Detached podcast
Welcome to the podcast. This is a space where I get to vocalize my thoughts and dive deep into conversations with some truly remarkable individuals. It’s not about surface-level chit-chat—this is where we get into the real stuff. We talk about the things that matter: health, fitness, relationships, and the process of breaking free from the limitations we place on ourselves.
I don’t believe in small talk, because nothing meaningful ever comes from it. So, let's dig deep into the topics that can actually change your life. I want to bring you value, provoke your thinking, and help you see the world differently.
If you resonate with these conversations, I’d love for you to share the podcast with others. Your support means everything.
Let's get into it.
Sophia
The Detached podcast
Ep: 91 From Pool to Profit: Building a Business Around Your Passion
What happens when a lifelong passion collides with entrepreneurial drive? Faris, founder of the world's first swimming app for Apple Watch, takes us on his remarkable journey from childhood pool sessions to building a seven-figure business centered around his love for swimming.
Born to Syrian immigrants in America, Faris found freedom and control in the water from an early age. "I love the feeling of being weightless in the water and completely separated from the world," he explains. "You can't take your phone with you, no one can bother you, and you're just alone." This sanctuary became the foundation for both his athletic pursuits and eventual business venture.
The entrepreneurial path wasn't without significant challenges. Faris candidly shares his biggest regret—waiting a full year before implementing a subscription model: "We went a full year not making any money." This hard-learned lesson shaped his advice for aspiring founders: focus on profitability from day one. The COVID pandemic dealt another devastating blow when pools worldwide closed, threatening his swimming-centered business with extinction. Through perseverance and adaptation, he maintained his team despite burning through substantial resources, proving that "startups only die when founders give up."
Beyond business strategy, Faris offers profound insights on avoiding burnout, maintaining authenticity while building a personal brand, and the power of complementary partnerships. Despite struggling with reading as a child, he's published multiple successful books on swimming, including his latest, "How Not to Drown"—addressing the shocking reality that one in two people worldwide cannot swim. His story reminds us that our greatest challenges often reveal our most meaningful opportunities for impact.
Ready to dive deeper into your own passion? Subscribe to hear more conversations with entrepreneurs who've transformed their unique skills into thriving businesses while staying true to themselves.
Welcome back to another episode of the Detached Podcast. I have never had anyone on who is a swimming expert, so thank you for coming on today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Do you want to introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:Sure, my name is Faris and born and raised in the United States. My parents are immigrants from Syria and I've been swimming my entire life and was able to turn my passion for swimming into a business, and we help people swim all over the world and reach their fitness goals.
Speaker 1:So when did swimming enter your head?
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting. My parents didn't learn how to swim growing up, so it's ironic that I'm in the position of being like the swim guy. My parents never had that background, so when they moved to America they put me in swim lessons as like a five-year-old, and that was the community thing to do.
Speaker 1:What made them move to America?
Speaker 2:So my dad did his PhD at the University of Oklahoma. So you know, like I think that's at that time, that was one of the main reasons people would leave. They would go for, you know, higher education. So that was my dad. He did his PhD and then later moved to a different part of America, in Michigan, and that's where I was born. And actually when they moved to Michigan, they moved to this like waterfront community and that's where I ended up learning how to swim.
Speaker 1:Do you believe that's like a privilege to have moved to the US, considering, like obviously, the circumstances of Syria over the past couple of years?
Speaker 2:I think so I'm incredibly lucky, grateful. I always I approach life with a lot of gratitude because I know that. You know I've had certain opportunities and access to things that I know a lot of other people haven't had. At the same time, you know there are plenty of other people who have the same access, so it's like you know what are the cards that you have dealt to you and then how do you get the most out of them so have you ever gone back to syria?
Speaker 2:a long time ago yeah, and I hope to be back soon. Especially now the political climate is kind of crazy, but I went to syria twice but I was like really small what was that like?
Speaker 2:what? From what I can remember, it was just like a lot of family time and you know I'm like the adorable child that everyone wants to get attention to and, yeah, I mean I don't really have too much memories besides what I've heard stories and the photos. But you know it's interesting. Now you can stay in touch with people a lot easier than when I was growing up as a child, because now, with social media and WhatsApp and everything like that, it feels like there was this period when I was growing up where the family was actually really disconnected, because if you had to, you know call on a landline and it costed like $3 per minute to have a phone call, and then there's a time zone thing and there's no internet. Now you can stay in touch a lot more frequently. So I feel like actually more connected now with social media and also being here in Dubai right now. So I feel more connected. I do wish that I had I didn't have a two decade gap in the middle there, but it is what it is and here we are.
Speaker 1:Do you still have family in Syria?
Speaker 2:Most of the family is in Syria actually.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we have a few relatives sort of spread out, but when, when my family moved to Oklahoma and then Michigan, I mean they were the first ones to really like, from both sides of the family, to actually leave Syria and do something else outside of Damascus. I mean, damascus is, you know, capital city. It's like a big city, but when you go, you know, not just out of the country but out of the Middle East, across the Atlantic Ocean, it's a whole nother world and, like I said, without the internet, I feel like, you know, it was very different doing that kind of a move. Like 40 years ago compared to today, I feel like everything is more international, globalized. There's obviously a lot of challenges if you make that kind of a move, but at that time, I mean, they didn't just go to America, they went to Oklahoma, which, if anyone doesn't know, it's like the middle of America, like there's no diversity, and so to have these people coming from the Middle East to the middle of America, that's definitely a big change.
Speaker 1:Was there any struggle of like growing up, being from Syria and then being in the US?
Speaker 2:I think there was. I don't want to like shield myself from it, because there were clear differences when I was growing up. Like, for example, um, you know the, the food that my mom would pack for lunch was different than everyone else's. So I'd have like hummus in my food and everyone had like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and like their parents would pack them like the generic uh, you know, like store-bought stuff, and my mom would like seek out special food and make it for me. I remember I'd have like pita bread and labneh and all this stuff and people were like what is that? And it was actually worse for my older brother.
Speaker 2:So my brother's five years older than me, and he was like they're more like fresh to America, so they hadn't assimilated quite as much. You know, like my brother, you know it was bilingual in the house, between Arabic and English. So to get that kind of an experience, I think it was unique and I really appreciate that. At the same time, in my school I was the only one like that. So, like none of the other kids in my class, their parents would speak to them maybe in a different language, and so you know from that and also you have you. So you have language, you have culture, you have religion, you have all these different things that are like different than everyone else, but I think, just my personality and maybe the way my parents raised me. I really just embraced all of that and I never really felt. Even though there were people who put me in a different category, I still felt like I could get along with everyone.
Speaker 1:So you never felt like excluded or anything for being different.
Speaker 2:I was certainly excluded. I think it's more like my mindset. I didn't really allow that. I think you know how people form like cliques in school and you have, you know, this group of people and this group of people For whatever reason. I was never really in any of those cliques, I sort of just got along with everyone and I think, even like today, I have a lot of acquaintances and I am still similar.
Speaker 2:It makes it difficult because you don't really have as many like close people because you're just associated or you have all these people that like you know or they know you or something, but then you don't have as much of like a close circle. So I feel like even today I'm still working on that. But growing up and maybe it's this is a therapy session, maybe this is rooted in how it was in school, because I never really had that growing up I mean, swimming was was part of that like I had my community of people that were swimmers and on the swim team and that was one. But I think a lot of those people are still in the acquaintance category compared to like deep connections that I've formed for a long period of time.
Speaker 1:Why do you think now, as an adult, you find it difficult to form deep connections.
Speaker 2:For me. I think it's hard to find deep connections because I'm always on the move. I feel like I haven't been in one place doing the same thing for a very long period of time and also so that's maybe part of it. I think the other reason is just like, again, my persona, personality. I'm very, like, growth oriented and sometimes you can grow out of different groups that you were a part of. So maybe, like I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:So you know, I swam at my university, I competed in college, so I had, you know, my group of people. That was my click for like four years basically, and today I mean, I've taken swimming and turned it into a career and a profession and I do that at like a high level, and almost no one else is still doing that and they've gone on and done other things, and so not just from the swimming perspective, but also in like pursuing ambitious goals. You know people maybe they get a job and then they sort of just like settle down with that and then they're happy with that and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But I've taken, you know, the entrepreneurial route which you know very few people end up taking from a more traditional background and I think that's partially almost excluded me from forming those closer bonds, just because you keep almost I don't want to say like outgrowing people, but you're going in just different directions and people are just fine with what's going on right now yeah, you're going at a different speed.
Speaker 1:so just people, then it's either they speed up to your speed or then they just get left behind in a sense. And it's not like sometimes when you do say that out loud it might seem like kind of negative, but also it's just the way life goes. You know it's, you're growing, you're progressing, and if you want to go at the same speed as you, they will. They'll catch up to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's different phases of life too. So, like you know, some of my friends now they have, you know, like a few children, and I don't have any kids.
Speaker 2:So you know sometimes they'll have events and like they won't invite me because they know like, well, we're just going to have like couples or you know, like everyone who has like a two year old or something, and so I think and that's totally fine, I think it's just natural You're going to be with different groups of people and I'm a big believer in you're the average of those five people that you surround yourself with that you compare yourself to. So if you're around a bunch of family people all the time that have kids, you know that's your circle. If you're around a bunch of single people or people who go partying or people who do all this other stuff, that's going to reflect on you. And so now I feel like, as I'm trying to get to that not the partying part, the family part, as I'm trying to get there, it's trying to identify how do I spend my time, who I spend my time with, and it's just a continuous process of learning my time with and it's just a continuous process of learning.
Speaker 1:When you just touched on party in there, did you ever like drink or drugs or anything? Because now, being an athlete, like did you look after your body as if it was a temple or how? How did that look?
Speaker 2:yeah, you have one body, so you got to take care of it. I never participated in any of that shenanigans um whether I was in shenanigans.
Speaker 1:I love this word. It's a word that I haven't heard in so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So silliness, shenanigans, partying, whatever. I never did any of that and I think part of it is not. I don't really think it's because, like I'm an athlete, I have to treat my body as a temple. I mean, I've eaten plenty of fast food, hamburgers and stuff. So I do take care of my health and that's part of my life. But it was more just like the way I was raised, so from my family upbringing it was that's really the reason why I wasn't participating in a lot of that stuff. I think today, and especially now, it's almost like trending to be like really fit and not drink alcohol. It's like I've been doing this my whole life and like now you guys are catching up. But I think it's more just the way I was brought up.
Speaker 1:So when you were a teenager, then would you, would you only participated in sports all the time that it was nothing else?
Speaker 2:It's really just swimming. I mean, I wouldn't even say sports, I'm not really good at anything but swimming. So I did like soccer and different sports when I was seven or eight years old, but it was swimming what I actually fell in love with and I started to get good at swimming. I was never really good at the other sports and also for my age like I was relatively young for my grade and I grew uh like slower than everyone else so I was like very small relative to the other kids. So even for swimming, like you know, people see me I'm like kind of an average size person, but when I was growing up I was relatively small and so in sports you have a clear advantage when you're bigger than other people and physically strong or whatever. So I didn't really do other sports, it was just swimming and I wasn't even that intense about it until I got older.
Speaker 2:I feel like I am way more intense about swimming in the last five to 10 years compared to when I was like a teenager, because when I was a teenager I didn't even do swimming year round. I just, you know, I did high school swimming and then I walked onto my college swim team and that was a huge step up in terms of intensity and time commitment and I learned a lot of things going through that journey and then even beyond that. I never thought, like I swam at the masters world championship several times, I do all this like crazy stuff that if you were to ask me when I was a teenager, you'd be like why would I do that? Like I'm not good, like I thought that was reserved for, like other people. And as I went into more like adult fitness, I started to learn more about all these different opportunities and now it's a part of what I do professionally as well.
Speaker 1:What did you fall in love with the most? With swimming, I.
Speaker 2:I love the feeling of being weightless in the water and you're completely separated from the world. You can't take your phone with you, no one can bother you and you're just alone. And you have when you become better at swimming you have full control over everything. So you know, for someone who's not like a trained swimmer, like, oh, I get in the water, I hold my breath, I blow bubbles, I splash around, but when you've trained it, you, you develop this insane vestibular awareness in the water and you can really manipulate your body in a lot of different ways. Uh, everything from. Obviously there are different strokes that you can swim, but also you know being able to like push off the wall in a streamline, take seven dolphin kicks and then five strokes to get to the other end of the pool and, like you could, on command, tell me I want you to swim 32 seconds in butterfly in a 50. And I could like do that on command and that feeling of control and being separated from everyone else is really special.
Speaker 1:And you can't do that in any other sport. On the days that you don't swim, how do you feel?
Speaker 2:I feel fine. I mean, I swim almost every day, but it's not like, oh, I need to go swimming. You actually improve your feel of the water the more frequently you do it. So one of the most challenging things for me actually is if I swim, like every other day. So a lot of people actually do this. If they swim, this is their normal routine.
Speaker 2:Most people swim three or four times per week. It's kind of like weightlifting. You don't really weightlift seven days a week. You give yourself some time to recover. Swimming is a little bit different, because you actually don't need that recovery because swimming is low impact. You can literally do it every single day. So for me, I actually have a challenge where I feel like not as good when I get back into the pool. So it's not an issue of not swimming, it's that next session that I swim in. If it was more than 24 hours since the last one, the beginning doesn't feel very good because you've lost some feel of the water. You're like not as sharp, if that makes sense, and so it's not the days that I don't swim, it's the days that I swim after not swimming, and then it's hard to get back into it.
Speaker 1:But mentally, how do you feel? Do you think it impacts your mental positivity in some sense, if that's the feeling that you get from it?
Speaker 2:I think it's working out in general. So normally I work out every single day. If I don't work out, then I feel like something's missing. I didn't maximize my body and my mind and I think there's something about. I've even looked at, like you know, what's the most optimal way to swim and lift weights and do cardio and whatever. And I actually don't think I do the most optimal thing because I prioritize doing something every single day. Like sometimes it would be better to actually have more intensity and then have a recovery day If I was trying to like put on more muscle.
Speaker 2:But I don't really like that. Like I want to do something active every single day. So I'm okay being a little bit more inefficient with how I train, especially for, like, weightlifting, if it means I get to work out every single day. Now, swimming is a little bit different for me. If I'm going to a competition, I'll start to really optimize to make sure I can actually perform, because in swimming the clock measures everything. So I can actually perform because in swimming the clock measures everything. So like I'm like weight lifting, I'm not competing for like a one rep max in anything, so it doesn't really matter how much weight I lift, but for swimming it does matter, so I will prioritize things differently if I'm training for something how do you avoid burnout?
Speaker 1:because it sounds like you obviously like to work out a lot have you faced any parts of your life where you just feel like this is absolute burnout.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. I burned out last year actually both mentally and physically, because I took on too much. I was training a lot, but the thing that really burned me out is I was competing too much. So last year in the first six months of the year I competed in like eight or nine international competitions and so these are like multi-day events. So you know, if you're not familiar with swimming, basically like you can do a race and it's only like 30 seconds, like how could that you up? But if you're doing like five to seven different events in the same competition over like a, it's like a three-day window and you're doing prelims and finals in the same day and there's the mental toll of having to like be really sharp and you are when you're competing, you're pushing your body to the max. So what I realized is, as a you know, 30 something year old, it's a lot different than being 19 and being able to handle that kind of a schedule.
Speaker 2:And when I think about how much I competed last year, I was basically competing at the level of like I was a professional athlete, but I'm not a professional athlete, Like I'm not that good. So I was burned out. I ended up hurting my shoulder. I ended up breaking my elbow earlier this year and I was just like physically tired. I was physically not and mentally also just burned out. So I've learned from that. Even though I can theoretically do all these amazing opportunities and go to these cool events, sometimes I have to say no because even though I enjoy most of it, if it ends up meaning I'm going to get injured and just like being injured sucks, you can't do the thing that you want to do, so I want to avoid that as much as possible. When you talk about mental burnout to do so.
Speaker 1:I want to avoid that as much as possible when you talk about mental burnout, what happened?
Speaker 2:So I think it was all related. So I mean, I'm building the business, I'm you know, I'm writing another book, I'm training to compete in all these different things, and I think it was both physical and mental where I just feel like I was just doing too many things. There's only so many, so many things you can put on a plate. Like you know, we all have 24 hours in the day, so I feel like I normally try and maximize every single minute of every hour and sometimes your body just needs intentional time to do nothing and, and if you don't give your body that break, your mind needs it as well. So I think, from a like a mental perspective, it was less like I'm really depressed or something. It was more. I'm doing too many things and things are starting to fall apart, whether it's in the business, in people I'm connecting with or in my you know body and schedule do you think that shows up in other ways, like getting injured to put a pause in your life when you're doing too many things.
Speaker 1:Do you think is it like some sort of message that's trying to come through? I think that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:So, like you know, I hurt my shoulder and it's something I'm still actually working on rehabbing.
Speaker 2:And if you think about swimming, like if you can't use your shoulder, if you can't use your arm, you're kind of useless in the water there's really not a lot you can do, and so that prevented me from doing a lot of the things that I wanted to do in the second half of the year, and then, even to now, even if I didn't break my elbow, I still would have been not in an ideal position physically.
Speaker 2:And then that takes a toll on me mentally because I can't do the things that I want to do for my career as well. So, even though I'm not like a professional athlete in the sense that my athletics dictates my career, but I'm still swimming and filming myself swim I'm talking about swimming in front of the camera Like I still need to be sharp in swimming to be able to do like my job, and so not being able to do that, having the injury, is certainly a message from the universe saying hey, man, chill out, sit down, take a back seat. You need to fix this stuff before you can move on. You're doing too much.
Speaker 1:Does swimming dictate your happiness?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I think it's part of my happiness. But there are periods of time where I'll give you an example. A year and a half ago I did a 30-day travel trip like a sabbatical. A year and a half ago I did a 30-day travel trip like a sabbatical where I went through Southeast Asia and had very minimal swimming, and I finished that 30 days like the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. And so I think I get fulfillment not just from swimming, because I was still working out, I was traveling, I was seeing the world, I was meeting people and for me that's actually probably the most invigorating, not really swimming, it's just being exposed to different cultures, people, new experiences. And there was a little bit of swimming thrown in there. It's not like I didn't swim, but that was not the priority at all, and I came back from that trip extremely happy. I think one.
Speaker 2:A lot of people have the problem of like, especially when they start a company, that they're really passionate about the thing that they're building. They start to tie up their persona with the business and then their success is dictated by the success of the company, and if the company fails, they have failed. I think for me. Over the last 10 years, since I started my company, I've been able to have a unique personality on my own, and then there's the business. I'm certainly one of the front-facing people of our company and the brand and all that, but I still feel like I'm a holistic human and I don't really need the company.
Speaker 1:That's just like one thing that I've been able to create have you been able to just figure that out throughout the journey, or have you merged the two together once upon a time and then learned your lesson the hard way, or how has that happened?
Speaker 2:I'm grateful that it hasn't been like I had to hit rock bottom where I realized I have worth beyond my company. I've heard I can't resonate with that story that I don't think that's really me. I think, yeah, I think for me I just organically developed myself and the company at the same time. I mean, I existed before the company and I'll exist after the company. So I think part of it too is because I started my business when I was already like an adult, so it's not, like you know, same as the online content. So I started to become like popular inside of our industry when I was in my mid twenties. So I'd already developed my mindset, like I knew who I was.
Speaker 2:I wasn't really as influenced as some of the things that would be influential to say, a 15-year-old. So if someone starts a company when they're 15 or they become like a TikTok celebrity when they're a teenager, I mean they're still maturing as a person, but they're getting an unbalanced view of the world because of the way people perceive them, and I think it's actually more beneficial to gain popularity as a fully fledged adult or your prefrontal cortex is a little bit more development, not to say that you don't feel that level of notoriety and that it gets to your ego, but at the same time you're at least closer to the more complete version of yourself and having this popularity or business success whatever it doesn't mess with your mind, as it would if you had started a lot earlier.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? I had an interesting thought the other day and I was thinking like there's a lot of personas, online influencers, and they expose themselves as this unique person that's not actually them behind the scenes, and I came to the realization imagine these influencers when they have kids, and maybe they would leave the world one day. Their kids are going to discover them in such a different light that isn't their father or their mother, and I found this really interesting. So it's it's such a nice thing to hear the fact that you've just been entirely you during the whole process of building yourself, building your company, because I think that is really important that you see yourself through as a unique person, an authentic person, because you never know where those videos are going to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and actually it doesn't feel right sometimes I you know we're trying to do a certain angle with a video or something. It just doesn't feel right if, like, I can't read a script. You know, like. So I think you can really tell, like you made an excellent point. I think you can identify that based on the frequency and volume of content someone puts out, so you can tell when someone's kind of manufacturing something, because they're just not putting out that much stuff. It's very curated, it's very selective, it's very and maybe they're only showcasing one facet of their life, which is fine. You know, like you can do whatever you want in a free world, but if someone only has a few strategic posts, it could be someone completely different. In reality, they're just choosing what to put out. I think for me, and that's very exhausting and stressful because you're putting on a show for when the camera turns on when you hit record, when the clapperboard goes off.
Speaker 2:I think for me, I just have so much stuff out there, I'm just trying to be myself. It'd be too exhausting to actually try and pretend. And so I think, from my perspective and maybe this is naive most people who are putting out like a ton of content all the time non-stop for the last five, ten years, that's who they are like. You know, it's rare that I I see those kind of people and I meet them in real life. It's like wow, you're nothing like the video. People even tell me they're like yeah, you're just like you are in the videos. I'm like well, good, because you know I'm not wearing any makeup or like a wig or something like this is who I am, if anything.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people say in real life I have even more energy than what, because the camera, almost, like it, tones you down a little bit. Yeah, people talk about like the, the camera, 10 pounds or whatever, but like, I think, actually being on camera, if you're not comfortable, it makes you more like monotone and I don't know if it's like the pressure of being you know, right now we're in a studio but it's like the pressure of having the camera on it. Sometimes it makes it hard for people to actually be who they are, and I think the more reps you have of being in that environment it doesn't have to be on a camera, but just like maybe speaking in front of other people you become more comfortable with who you are and what you're going to say did you ever feel nervous about public speaking?
Speaker 2:I was terrified of speaking in incredible which is quite a story because and now people see me and they're like, oh, this guy is so confident in front of whatever he does. I was terrified. In high school we had to give you know presentations. I remember for one of my classes I was like 16. I was about to throw up Like I had to give you know like the semester end presentation, and I was not prepared, I didn't rehearse, I didn't know the content well, what I was going to say, and so that added to the anxiety. And I remember just delivering the presentation and it was so bad on so many levels and that makes you feel worse while you're giving the presentation, knowing that you're not doing a good job.
Speaker 2:And I think the reason why I was able to go from like a horrific experience to at least somewhat being more confident is both repetition of like the more times you do it, the more comfortable you're going to get, and also surrounding myself with other people who are doing that regularly and just seeing like, oh, this is like a normal person, like they're not any different than me, so if they can do it, I can do it.
Speaker 2:And then actually the third area is I feel way more comfortable speaking about things that I know what I'm talking about. So I would feel like I still get nervous, like everyone has nerves and that's good. It means you care about something. But if I'm speaking on something that I know or if I'm speaking about myself, it shouldn't be that hard, because if I'm authentic, there's no reason, there's no wrong answer, like I'm just speaking from within. And I think the nerves come when you are more concerned with what other people think of you, which means you're losing some level of authenticity anyway, because if you're truly being authentic, you don't care what anyone else thinks, and I think that takes some level of self-belief and confidence to be able to do that. But I've learned over the years that you know I can't control what everyone else does. I can't control what they think of me. I can just put my best foot forward and I just want to be the most authentic version of myself, and you can take it or leave it.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of public speakers that do feel nervous. They don't actually understand the true purpose of why they're public speaking. They just want to do this public speaking speech, but they don't actually have a true purpose and this is why they get so nervous. Because, when you think about it, if they are providing information to the audience, right, surely it's all about the audience, not about them.
Speaker 2:And then I think they forget that that actually what they're delivering is for the other people it's nothing to do with them yeah, 100% and that's where that anxiety comes from, because the fear of judgment and rejection yeah, and I think, for me, the content that I make is I'm trying to help people get better at swimming, like, and it's something that I know and I'm really passionate about, and I don't like, I don't care if you like, like the t-shirt that I'm wearing when I'm in the video my goal is to communicate to you the specific topic of how to get better at swimming, and so, because I know I can deliver that value, I want to put my best foot forward to make sure that the person receiving this message, whether it's in person or on video, they're actually able to, you know, pull something of value from it.
Speaker 2:And then you start to not really care about. You know, is my hair good? Is, you know, maybe I should have shaved today? Like, those things start to not matter as much. I mean, you certainly want to be presentable and you want to be memorable.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the most important things. That people maybe overcomplicate is like how do I make sure I leave a good impression?
Speaker 1:And way you do that is just being yourself so, when it comes to building an app and then, obviously, being passionate about women, how does, like an entrepreneur, differentiate whether their passion? Is well implemented, or is whether it's going to be the right idea to build a business out of their passion. Like, because I kind of find like, even as a fitness professional, I was strength and conditioning coach I found, when I stopped delivering personal training and I was thinking about delivering an app, right, they're two different things yeah you know you become a business owner.
Speaker 1:You're not. You're not fully living your passion. Have you found a disconnect in between the two or do you feel happy in both?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's a really good and difficult question because over the years I've had to make changes so that I can stay connected to my passion and not just be the corporate guy who is disconnected from the reality of what their product is actually delivering. One way that I've done that, to be more clear, you know, so I was a swim coach. We started the app and then I stopped coaching swimming and so there was a period of time where I felt disconnected, even though I never forgot how to swim Like I still swim and whatever. But a lot of the value that I try and communicate is through coaching, not really the athletic side of things. So as a coach, when you're doing it in real life, you can feel the connection with the other person. You also get to understand like, is this drill good for them? And you really sharpen your skills when you're actually doing it on the ground, on the pool deck, whatever. So there's a period of time where I stopped doing that and I did feel a little disconnected. Same thing goes if you stop talking to your customers or prospective customers. So even with that. So you know people who download the app. I talk to them a lot and then I slowed down how much I was doing that, and then I started to feel disconnected and so, you know, one time we were doing like a video shoot, and so we it sounds so crazy, but I hired athletes to come in just so I could like coach them a swim workout. So it looks like I'm coaching people swimming, and so the reality is like I was. I was actually coaching them. It's not like I needed some model to be in the pool, like I had actual swimmers, we were training them and I paid like $10,000 to do this video shoot. And then I had people on the pool deck like asking hey, can we participate in this? How do we sign up for this? And so that's actually how we started our swim retreats. So we do one week swim retreats and that's how I stay connected. So, even though I don't coach on like a daily basis, every few months I'll do a one week training camp and the idea came from a video shoot and people like literally wanting this thing, and so now it allows me to do the thing that I'm really passionate about, which is coach and keep my skills sharp. At the same time, I can focus on running the business, which is not dependent on me coaching every single day in real life. So I think that's how I've been able to balance it.
Speaker 2:But to answer your question around, you know, is your passion something that you should create a business about? That's a little bit more complex because it really depends on the person, and I think this is different for everyone. So some people they really want to just be a business owner, and if they can combine their passion like good for them, that's what they should do, because they have the most interest in it. Some people may feel that they're exploiting their passion and they don't want to necessarily monetize it and so they want to have, like this, this separation between the two, and so I think for me it's it's. I would just recommend you have to do some self-reflection of what do you actually want for yourself? Are you okay getting paid from one source and then your passion can stay your passion and you do that two hours a day, or do you want to go 16 hours a day in it? You know there are maybe 20, 30% of the stuff I do I don't want to do.
Speaker 1:What are the things that you don't want to?
Speaker 2:do Like admin stuff. You know, like I don't want to have to go through payroll, or someone has this email issue or like some governmental thing or accounting. You know there are a lot of like little things like that. Also, you know when you, when you hire employees, you have to take on additional responsibility where if someone screws something up, it's technically your fault because you're the one who hired them. So now you have this delegation and stuff like that, which is not me coaching swimming.
Speaker 2:But I know building the thing that we're trying to build requires some level of delegation and admin work and all this stuff that you don't want. And that's what's required to build any kind of business. Whether you're doing it by yourself or you're going to scale to like thousands of people, you have to do stuff you don't want to do. So if you want to keep your passion your passion and not deal with the things that you don't want to do, then you shouldn't try and build a business out of it. But if you're so passionate about it and you don't mind the added work of things that you don't want to do for pursuit, then you should consider taking the passion and actually building something that can be monetized how does one create an app?
Speaker 2:how do you create an app? You know this, you created that this, this you create an app today way different than you did 10 years ago yeah, I know it was way more complicated for you, but it was. It was slower and more expensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when we started, you needed to build the software natively. There weren't these cross-platform tools, there wasn't AI. None of this stuff existed. So, you know, I recruited two technical co-founders. We built out a technology team company.
Speaker 1:What do you look for in a co-founder?
Speaker 2:What do you look for in a co-founder? You look for complementary skills with the same values and vision. The biggest mistake people make in choosing a co-founder is finding someone who's exactly like them. You need to have complementary skills because you don't need two of the same person. The idea is that building a startup is so difficult, regardless of the type of company, so you need people who can own different parts of the business, whether it's someone doing the technical stuff, someone doing the sales, someone doing the marketing, someone doing the design. These should all be very different people.
Speaker 2:The worst kind of business structure is you have three MBAs who all went to the same school with the same interests, with the same technical skills. You really only need one of those people. It'd be faster and more efficient if just one of those people started the company and did everything by themselves. So when you start to expand beyond one person, it's so important to have someone who shares the same vision and values and they're directionally moving in the same direction as you. But they do things that you can't do, and if they can't do things that you can't do, then you have to think well, why are they there?
Speaker 1:So when you started your company, did you have any teething issues with co-founders? Because yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's weird if you don't have to, like when you're building a company, whether you have five or 50 people, you probably did something wrong if you didn't have to let someone go, because the reality is you're not going to get it right every single time and regardless of how many times you've hired, whether it's co-founder or a first employee, you're still learning through that process and your needs change over time.
Speaker 2:So for us, we actually we had four people initially, initially it was it was three, then it was four, and then one of the guys we didn't align on the vision, the direction, the complimentary skills, and it was a mutual, basically parting of ways. It's not that much different from having to let someone go in the company. You know they may not have actually done something wrong, like they didn't break the law, they didn't do anything malicious to hurt the company. But as the business evolves, their skills might become redundant. Like the things that they're doing, you may not need to do them anymore, and so if they can't adapt to whatever the new reality is, then it's better, instead of trying to keep them there and you know it's better to let them go to another opportunity and find the right, the right person that will fit that role.
Speaker 1:At what stage did you feel like right, this business is going in the right direction, everything's going sweet, because startup is a bit of a funky phase, right? How long did that last?
Speaker 2:yes, I mean I'm still trying to make it work. I've been doing this 10 years. I'm still trying to like make it work. I think there are specific instances that I felt that was not where I wanted to be, on top of the world. Yeah, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:I wanted like the funky phase to like end after a short while and then you're on the trajectory no.
Speaker 2:So I think what happens is that's a good point. So, like, what happens is you become complacent. So I've experienced that several times where it's like oh, we did it. Like business is good, yeah, we're good. But as soon as you do that, everyone starts to pass you. The world changes. If you don't adapt, then you're going to be left behind. I think that's why my first instinct was like I'm still trying to figure it out, because the world is changing, like I mentioned. Like when you build the app 10 years ago, it's way different than launching something now yeah whether it's using the ai tools or just like the way the market is, or competition.
Speaker 2:We were the world's first swimming app on the apple watch. Now they're a ton of apps and they all copy what we do, so you can't ever think that you've made it. You always have to be pushing to leverage the new technology, the market, your own skills, your own positioning, because if you don't do that, you will be left behind.
Speaker 1:Are you at the point now that you would like to sell the company?
Speaker 2:I would like to scale the company and if that means an acquisition and a company wants to help us grow, I would like to scale the company and if that means an acquisition and a company wants to help us grow, I would absolutely consider that because, like, like I said, like you're always trying to figure out how to make it better and so at some level I mean like 10 years of doing this it is somewhat exhaustive. Like I'm tired. You know we talked about burnout and stuff, but like I don't, I don't feel like I'm burned out right now, but I'm definitely tired and I my energy level, even though I have a lot of energy to what we're doing. The intensity and the focus was higher eight or nine years ago. There's no question about that. I was willing to pull all-nighters.
Speaker 2:The funny thing is I pulled all-nighters for my company. I never did that in school. I always remember people like, oh, we got an exam tomorrow, I got to pull an all nighter. I never did that. The only time I ever, I've ever done that is like in the business world after school, and so, like now, I really wouldn't be doing that just because I have more experience. So I never really put myself in a position where, like I kind of screwed myself over. Where I have to do that, I would be because I'm the founder. I would be willing and able to do that if necessary. I don't really want to do it, whereas I would have jumped at the opportunity to do that eight or nine years ago. So I think if there's a the right partner, we would look to sell the company if we can scale it out even further.
Speaker 1:Have you had any dark moments during the growth of the app?
Speaker 2:hmm, dark I don't know if it's dark so much as extremely difficult, where I'm like why is this happening? And you almost get like it's almost like you're frustrated. I think frustration is probably the biggest. There have been a few of those over the last decade. The most notable is COVID. So if you imagine, like the world's swimming pool shut down, we have a swimming subscription. No one can swim why would you start or renew a subscription for a thing that you can't do?
Speaker 2:So that was, and it kept on getting worse, actually because like COVID wave two, and like they're going to lock down everything again and in different parts of the world had different restrictions and pools were open here and not open here. So that was like a 18 to 24 month really bumpy window where it was like I felt like I was on a hamster wheel. I'm just like working really hard. The whole team is really committed. We're like burning money like crazy and you know, when you, when you have a team like at that point we had, we had 10 people and I had just hired three of them right before COVID and like I didn't want to let anyone go you know we're spending like over $100,000 a month on salaries and we're like literally like making almost nothing for that extended period. So you look how much money you have in the bank. I got to pay all these people.
Speaker 1:So what was your burn rate for like 12 months, like how much money you burn in 12 months during COVID?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, but like it's all relative, so it was more, you know, as like a 20 something year old. You know I had this high in 2019. I mean to tell you the arc of like how ridiculous this all was. 2019, we're growing like a rocket ship. We hit like a you know seven figure company. Now we're doing, you know, over a million in revenue. I just hire three more people.
Speaker 2:We're named app of the year by Apple across all app categories for the Apple Watch, and so I feel like I'm on top of the world, like we're talking about the emotional roller coaster here. So, like everything's good, we hire some people, and then this COVID thing happens and all the world's pools completely shut down and now I'm just burning a ton of money and I'm trying to be like the fearless leader out in front. Meanwhile I'm not necessarily panicking, I'm just really frustrated that nothing is working. And you know you put a lot of pressure on yourself because you know if you're the leader of the thing, you, it's on you. When things do well, it's like good job. When things do bad, it's also your fault. So, trying to play that self-accountability and not let the chaos of the world I mean you turned on the news and everyone's like the world is ending. There of the world. I mean, you turned on the news and everyone's like the world is ending. There's going to be like five years of this. You know like all these businesses are going to shut down and then in America you're trying to apply for like there's different funding opportunities to get this, and so that was a really frustrating period.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably the most damaging in terms you asked about like the darkest period. That was probably the most frustrating. There have been other blimps where you feel like why is everything going wrong at the same time? But I think you get stronger from each of those and sometimes you know you can't get out of these things.
Speaker 2:Like there are several times where the business if I didn't do anything about it and it extended long enough, you know we would have shut down, we wouldn't have a company anymore. But I think that's part of the ride of entrepreneurship is like stuff will not work until it works and if you can stick with it, as long as you're focused on iterating and trying to change something, if you just sit around and just let life happen to you, then, yeah, nothing's going to change and you will shut down. But I think you know there's this expression from Y Combinator where you know startups die when the founders give up. So, like there's always a way to make something work, it's just a matter of how long do you want to keep pushing to make that thing work.
Speaker 1:Did you have any business mentors or any sort of people that you'd look to during these like difficult times that weren't within the company?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think mentorship is huge because it's not about you know, you can surround yourself with people who are really successful and that's powerful and maybe inspirational, but you can't be actually working with a founder. So before I launched my company, I worked for four different startups, so two of them were VC backed, you know tech companies. One of them was a nonprofit. One of them was a nonprofit. One of them was a physical company.
Speaker 1:What type of companies were these?
Speaker 2:So two were technology software companies and they had raised venture capital funding, and the last one I was at. I started my SwimPro while I was at that company and I sat between the CEO and the CMO, so I heard their conversations, I was behind the scenes. The tech company I was at before that failed miserably, so I learned a lot from that as well. And then the one before that was like a nonprofit, and then the one before that was a physical product, and so they're all very different in a lot of different ways. But like just being in the environment of like, like actually working and building with the person who started the company, that is the most valuable experience that anyone can get.
Speaker 2:So if anyone wants to start a company, like find a way to position yourself immediately next to the person and also cause there are a lot of like I don't want to say bad entrepreneurs, but there are people who are not really invested in it and so, like saying someone has, like, this cute little thing over here and they sometimes pay attention to it. That's not who you need to surround yourself. You need to surround yourself with people who have actually built something and maybe this is the second or third time that they're building something, so you know they have a proven track record or for whatever reason, you believe that they are going to make it happen and so by the closer proximity you can get and the more contribution you can have towards their specific you know idea or business that is worth way more than any academic degree. That you can get. Any YouTube video you're going to watch, any podcast you're going to listen to, just like being in the trenches and seeing it happen.
Speaker 1:Do you think if you didn't have that experience of all those different companies that you'd work with, would you be sitting on the same success that you have today?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. There's no way. I think it's very rare for people to like build something and they may not have had the background that I have, where they like worked at other startups, but as they were building, they surrounded themselves with those people. So today I still do that. So even though, like you know, 10 years ago the world is very different. So, even though I'm not actively working at some other company now, I have to bring in the mentors or, like I have to actively pursue them. So you know I go to masterminds all the time. You know, in a week I'm going to Spain to go to a mastermind.
Speaker 2:I've been to masterminds in Dubai and so some of these are like relatively big investments. So you know you're spending money on coaching and consulting, because it's one thing to watch the YouTube video or listen to the podcast. It's another to actually like, put yourself next to them and actually get the feedback and like, show them your data and be like these are our numbers. You know how can this work. And now, because you know we're in the app space, I reach out to other app founders and I share notes, like we talk about. You know how many downloads we're getting, the download, conversion rate retention metrics, and so that's the best learning you can get. I think it's pretty much impossible for someone to build something and not have those touch points. It's extremely rare to be able to pull that off.
Speaker 1:How useful has Dubai been for you for these?
Speaker 2:touch points. It's good. I think Dubai is amazing because it brings together people from all over the world who are trying to improve something, some aspect of their life. They want to scale their business, they want to start a business. They're attracted to the palm trees. Whatever it may be, there's something that's bringing them here, but it's probably in some way a different and better enough environment than where they came from. In some regard. I'm not saying Dubai is like the best place in the world, but if you're trying to build a business and you want to be around business people, it's one of the best places in the world to do that. So I think, like I've attended multiple masterminds in Dubai and other places and yeah, it just brings together people who have a shared interest. You know it's not for everyone, if that's not what you're looking for, but for me I found it useful to you know, because it attracts a similar, like-minded set of folks.
Speaker 1:If you were to look back on your old self before you built the app, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 2:Before you start to build yeah.
Speaker 2:The best advice I would give myself is to make decisions more quickly Because, like, I'll give you an example we launched the app in 2015. We don't start a subscription until 2016. So we went a full year of not making any money. I didn't get paid the app, we were making no money literally. Then we launched this subscription and we also have a investment. We raised $50,000 from an accelerator and so now we started making money. Now we're a real business. So it took us a full year to become a real business and then after that, you know the implementation of new features, you know customer discovery, all that stuff. Like knowing what I know. Now we do everything a lot faster, and I think this is true, like anytime you talk to someone who's built anything, it's like oh, I could have made decisions like way more quickly.
Speaker 1:Where do you think the?
Speaker 2:slowness came from? Was it out of fear? Or, yeah, fear of making mistakes? Or why? Why do you think you were slow? Yeah, I think there is a fear of making mistakes. It's also you don't know what you don't know. So you think you need to do all of these different things before you can take the next step, when, in reality, is you just be better off taking the next step? See what happens, learn from that and then go from there.
Speaker 2:You know, like in software development, there's a, there's like two different strategies for building a product. There's the, the waterfall method, which is where you plan out for like a year in advance what you're going to build and then you try and build it over a long period of time. And then there's the scrum approach, which is like, every two weeks we're going to do something different and we're not going to even plan beyond two weeks. Like you know, people make oh, my new year resolution. Like, yeah, these goals are fine, but the path to getting to that goal might be completely different than what you initially planned. So I think you don't know that until you do it.
Speaker 2:So the reason why we took a year is because we thought we needed to do all these different things to position the app where we could add a subscription, when in reality, on day one we could have just had a trimmed down version of that and then we would have learned so much more quickly and the business would have been a lot bigger than it is today. But because we had like a year delay almost, and every step after that has been delayed to some level, Everything takes longer than you want it to sell in anything in business. But I think now I'm trying to push myself of like it's good enough, ship it. It's good enough, ship it. I take that approach for everything for the company, for my books, for videos. It's like it's good enough, ship it.
Speaker 1:So if you were to build a business now from scratch, what would be the things that you would do now that if you were to rebuild the app?
Speaker 2:I would go to profitability immediately. So the big mistake that we made was we waited a year until we made any money. So we didn't have any real expenses because it was, you know, sweat equity. But I would from day one how do I make this profitable? Because that is your gold star.
Speaker 2:If you think about, like, what's the? What's the point of a business? The true point of a business is to is to increase shareholder value. So if you're a company of one, if it's your business and you're the only person, well you're the only shareholder. So you need to make sure that you are generating a net income and not overly focused on revenue. So, like we, we had been in the past overly focused on revenue and we were losing money and so, because we had raised external funding, you can kind of like get away with that. So that's how I can afford to lose like $50,000 a month, but that's not sustainable for most businesses for any period of time.
Speaker 2:So from day one, I would think what are the unit economics Like? If this is the revenue, what are the expenses, what is the cost to fulfill? And then what is the net income? And I would think about it from that unit economic factor, whatever the offer was that I'm launching. I'm kind of in a privileged position now where I could theoretically just invest a ton of money and like lose a ton of money up front. But I know from experience that you're better off building a profitable machine in the beginning and then you scale that over time and people could say, well, what about this business? Like sure, there are differences in different kinds of businesses, but I would focus on unit economics from day one.
Speaker 1:If you were to create a new business now, what are the most important people within the business?
Speaker 2:Like I said, people who are complimentary to you. So if you're going to start a business from scratch, you need to immediately find people who will compliment what you're trying to do and align on your vision. And make sure you're upfront with the direction that you're trying to go, because sometimes people would think, oh, that's a great idea, like, oh, I could probably help you do this, but if you're building a company, you don't want help, you want people who are committed. They're going to be invested. It's why you know if you're building a business and like a partnership, you got to make sure you talked about equity and like who owns this business? Like, otherwise, you're better off just being a solo founder. And then you contract everything out that you need. So you're maybe going to be the face of the brand or whatever, and you want to build an app, so you don't need to bring on a co-founder, especially today. You can just contract out or, you know, using all the tools, either build that yourself or hire someone to build that for you, and that's one extension of the tree. Another branch of the tree would be like legal yeah, I got to set up my business. Does it mean you need to go hire or bring on a co-founder that's a lawyer, like no, and I actually had a friend that she was looking to build a new business and she was like yeah, so I want to bring on like a lawyer as a co-founder and an operations person as a co-founder and we'll build the company.
Speaker 2:And I was like no, it sounds like you're building the company and you just need to contract 10 hours of work to this one person. You shouldn't give them any equity, you're just going to hire them and because you're self-financing that part, that's just an expense of setting up the business. That's probably the only exception to what I was saying about the unit economics. Like, yeah, obviously there's no profit on the other end of you know the legal setup or something like that. So there are obviously circumstances where you don't need to have profit on the other end of that. But I think if someone's starting out, it's like it should just be you talk to your customers, figure out what they need, build it, and if you can't build it, bring in someone that can help you do that. And if they're the same person as you, they're the wrong person to help you.
Speaker 1:So we've talked a lot about business there and I feel like you're very passionate, you're entrepreneurial and you seem super busy. Do any of your family or your friends ever say that you're doing too much?
Speaker 2:Yes, but sometimes it's like who's saying that and why? So like sometimes people will look at what I'm doing and they'll say, oh man, you've got like five different things going on, like, do you, you know? Do you feel like burned out? Or you know how do you manage all of it? And the reality is I feel very in control of my schedule. I have I built my life in a way that I have a lot of flexibility.
Speaker 2:So I know that through experience now you can only do so many things. There are only so many people in your life that can actually have those connections with operate, business, fitness, whatever it may be. And I do know that in my next chapter of life, where I wanna have a family and stuff like that, I'm not gonna be able to still do all the stuff that I do. I've been launching a book every single year, doing all this world travel, fitness, business, podcasts, all this fun stuff. That's cool. I'm not going to do all of that.
Speaker 2:You know it's something is going to take a backseat, and I think just having the awareness of that is why I'm very careful of who I listen to when they say that, cause sometimes someone's like man, I don't know how you do all that. Like you got to tone it down. And I look at this other person and they've got like one thing going on and they don't like it. They're miserable at like their one job and they're not fit. They don't seem very happy Like I authentically feel like I'm in a great place. So I want to be careful with how I take that feedback because it can actually like mess with your psyche if people are telling you all these things but you genuinely feel happy doing what you're doing. So I don't think it makes sense to divert from that if you yourself feel confident in your direction.
Speaker 1:What have you done for your self-development?
Speaker 2:Self-development. I like to surround myself with people who are doing the thing that I want to be doing or there's a shared interest. So, from a self-development perspective, if we think about it very holistically, there's physical development. So I want to be around people who are fit, who are working out you know, because of my job, that's like a big part of it. From a growth mindset perspective, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I want to be around other people who are having these types of discussions and they're thinking about things in a similar way to me having these types of discussions and they're thinking about things in a similar way to me.
Speaker 2:I want to see the world because it's a very limited perspective. I have a more diverse perspective than a lot of people in America, but it's not as diverse as a lot of people I've met in Dubai, for example, where they speak like five languages. They've lived in like seven different countries. I've been to a lot of places, but I haven't really lived in that many areas. And when you live in a different area, you meet people and you get a different level of depth to what goes on in their mind and how they see the world, and I become a lot more open-minded. The more that I've traveled, the older I get, the more I talk to people. I have certain things that I believe myself that I stick to my guns. At the same time, I'm a lot more open-minded when someone has an opposing idea and I actually want to hear them out.
Speaker 2:So sometimes, especially like if you get into the political side, like I actually want to hear both sides of the argument, like I want to genuinely understand like why are people so convinced of this one thing, when I initially thought of something in a different way? Like there must be something to it. You see this in America at least, with the political race, or like the country seems so divided. There's like two candidates and they like want to kill each other and they're so angry about the other side's view or whatever.
Speaker 2:And it's like, why? Like, how can you know someone become elected as the president? And then half the country's pissed off, like why is it? They're almost confused that the other people could even think like the other side right. And so I try, and you know, because there's, you know the media has its own biases. So I try and just expose myself to like why do people think like this? Because I think you can put yourself in a box, in an echo chamber, especially with social media, where now you only hear people that validate what you're already thinking, and I think that can be in every facet. So for self-development I just try and expose myself to all these different ideas and see what works and learn and just keep going.
Speaker 1:So what's your first book? When did that begin?
Speaker 2:So my first book was 2020. I wrote it during COVID and actually what's funny is, the reason why I decided to publish a book is because I was watching, like this YouTuber and he a completely different genre. He did like finance related stuff and he was talking about how he wants to bring this information to more people. So he makes YouTube videos. He was doing like public speaking, he was doing interviews, his name is financial education on YouTube. So, anyway, he's just a finance guy and he said he decided to write a book because some people read books. They don't watch YouTube videos, and so it was just a very simple like, oh yeah, like not everyone watches my YouTube videos and I've written hundreds of articles on our website. So, like I didn't have imposter syndrome of like, oh, like, do I know enough? Like I've already written basically a book in fragmented ways. So, okay, it's COVID, people can't really go anywhere. Let me reinvest in this area of my output, basically. And so, yeah, I wrote my first book Swim Like a Pro. I wrote it in a month because I already I kind of knew what I was talking about. I just needed to organize what I've already written, publish that in 2021. And then I thought cool, I never thought I'd write a book.
Speaker 2:I was a terrible reading student in school. I was below average on every test score. They put me in a special class for reading, actually because I was so bad at it relative to the other students that were my age and a lot of it. What I realized is the material kind of sucked. I wasn't interested in it and that's why my reading comprehension, I think, was so poor relative to other people. So to think that I had Anyone can do this and I already have an audience for distribution. So I didn't really think oh, I wonder if anyone's going to. I didn't publish the book to make money. I think if anyone writes a book, you want to understand why are you doing that? Because it is a lot of work. It's going to be just like starting anything. You're going to be told no and things are not going to go the way that you want. It's going to take longer than you think.
Speaker 2:So for me it was more about how do I package this information in a new medium, which I haven't done before, and how can I increase my own authority in the category. And a book is basically a business card on steroids. So you know, even like the word authority has author in it. So if you want to be credible in your category, it helps. It's not required, but it helps to have a physical thing that you can just hand someone and that's your.
Speaker 2:You know, some people hand a business card. I hand them a book, and so it's a lot more powerful when you have that physical thing that you know. It's a difference between oh yeah, I have a YouTube video about it or I have an article. I have 250 pages of words that had focus and effort and we packaged that together. So for me, it was never really about like making money, it was more how can I document this thing and then create credibility and value to the market? Since then, I published other books just because I'm passionate about sharing information. I feel like there's a lot more that I can share and package it in different ways, and it furthers my credibility.
Speaker 1:I thought about the books in different ways now, but yeah, For your most recent one then, like how do you actually structure a book? Do you just have this idea and you just keep writing, or do you actually structure it before you begin?
Speaker 2:For a book. It really depends on the type of book it is. So the most simple genre is like a self-help book or like a instructional like this is how you do X, y, z or a transformation. You're right here by the end of the book. I want to get you to here, just like the arc of any storyline. You have a current challenge and I'm trying to help you get over it. This is the most simple format because you want to think well, like my newest book is how Not to Drown. It's like well, I'm going to teach you how to swim. So what's the first problem that people have? Why they don't know how to swim? Maybe they're scared of the water. They never learn. They don't realize how important it is that they should learn how to swim. So the first phase of the book is overcoming the fear of swimming, and the second phase is okay, now I'm going to teach you step-by-step how you actually would learn how to swim in 10 steps. And then the final part of the book is the okay, now what's next? So how do I take these skills and keep going?
Speaker 2:So any self-help or self-development instructional book follows that. It's like just a timeline, like where do you get started and then how do you go from there? I think it's a little bit different. If you're doing like a romance novel and you have to do like character development, the way you create, that is a lot different. But if anyone has an idea for a book, you need to create a mind map. So it's like, okay, here's the idea and let me write all the other ideas that could go. So if it's a romance novel, these are the characters and these are the themes and these are the lust and whatever you want to throw in. The romance novel For me it was a swimming book, so it's like swimming, nutrition, weight training, technique, butterfly, and so you start to organize all this stuff and then you condense it and then you create an outline and then you just get writing. The hardest part is the first step, just getting started.
Speaker 1:So how Not to Drown? Have you had any really scary situations in the water?
Speaker 2:So this book actually came because I I met people who had lost loved ones because they drowned, and so I remember this one specific story. When I meet people, I get one of two reactions. When they find out what I do, it's oh, that's so cool Swimming. Like I haven't met someone who's a swim coach. Like oh, that's that, was you travel around swimming Like that's cool, good for you.
Speaker 2:Or the other side is, oh, I don't know how to swim, I'm terrified of the water. My son drowned, my husband drowned right in front of me and I can't swim, and I can't even swim. So last year I taught my mom how to swim, and so that was just another like thing where, like, I can help a lot more people. You know, it's great. I really enjoyed that experience of teaching my mom how to swim and it gave me more confidence to think, even though I focused on the competitive side of swimming, one in two people can't swim, and so this is a massive problem swimming one in two people can't swim, and so this is a massive problem. This is like a global. You know, people are dying every single day from that specifically. So it's like okay, well, how do I help more people reduce their fear of the water and learn how to actually swim and make it more approachable, and that's what I did with this most recent book.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope people can enjoy it.
Speaker 1:So I have one last question to ask you what would you detach yourself that is limiting you today?
Speaker 2:What can I detach from? I want to detach myself from my preconceived notions of who I am and who I can become, even when I think about today where I am, I would have never thought I'd be doing some of the things that I'm doing having this conversation, just other stuff in my life when I was a 15-year-old and I think to myself today in my 30s, you know what are some things that in 10 years from now or 15 years from now I don't really think would be possible, and I want to detach myself from that perception I have of my future self.
Speaker 1:Great answer. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks for having me Enjoyed the conversation.