The Detached podcast
Welcome to the podcast. This is a space where I get to vocalize my thoughts and dive deep into conversations with some truly remarkable individuals. It’s not about surface-level chit-chat—this is where we get into the real stuff. We talk about the things that matter: health, fitness, relationships, and the process of breaking free from the limitations we place on ourselves.
I don’t believe in small talk, because nothing meaningful ever comes from it. So, let's dig deep into the topics that can actually change your life. I want to bring you value, provoke your thinking, and help you see the world differently.
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Sophia
The Detached podcast
Ep: 74. My Friends are Therapists. Unraveling Modern Connections, Screen Time, and Emotional Vulnerability
What happens when a physiotherapist, a psychologist, and a podcast host walk into a room? You get a candid and insightful conversation, exploring everything from the quirks of friendship dynamics to the complexities of modern technology's grip on our lives. With Toby, a skilled physiotherapist, and Jack, a perceptive psychologist, joining me, we unpack the spontaneity and authenticity that fuel our connections, both personal and professional. Jack shares his newfound drive for creative projects, highlighting the clarity and confidence that come from expressing oneself through writing and speaking.
Screen time—it’s a modern-day conundrum we all grapple with. Yet, how much is too much? In this episode, we swap humorous stories of viral video distractions and confess our screen time habits. We weigh the demands of work against personal discipline and consider the health implications of our digital obsessions. From exploring blue light glasses as potential saviors for our weary eyes to debating head sizes for glasses, we navigate these topics with a blend of humor and mindful reflection.
We also venture into the emotional landscape, exploring the necessity of vulnerability and personal space for high-functioning individuals. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, we examine how attachment styles and early life experiences shape our relationship dynamics, often leading to self-sabotaging behaviors if left unaddressed. By understanding our emotional triggers and the importance of holistic approaches to mental health, we aim to foster deeper connections and personal growth. Join us as we unravel these themes, offering a mix of levity and profound insight into the human experience.
Check Toby out on Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/toby_dxbsm?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
And Jack on : https://www.instagram.com/jackheyworth3?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Share your thoughts with me on instagram too : https://www.instagram.com/sophiadelavari/
Thank you for listening x
all right, welcome back to another episode of the detached podcast. Today's session is a little bit different because I've invited guests that are my friends today. So normally we would meet in a cafe or at home, but I've decided to have something a little bit different. Um, I feel like you're all kind of sitting a little bit formally and you should kind of shake it out a little bit with just giving a little intro of who do I have on the podcast today?
Speaker 2:Well, toby said he wanted to address the camera, so you go first, I'm gonna go first, hi, I'm Toby.
Speaker 3:I'm a physiotherapist and sports massage therapist based in Dubai, and I met Sophia four years ago as a client, I think you you hired me to come around to massage the back of your legs, if I remember correctly. And yeah, we've had a friendship ever since.
Speaker 1:That's like what, yeah, how many years?
Speaker 3:Four.
Speaker 1:I thought it was six.
Speaker 2:It's definitely longer, because you introduced me to Sophia like four years ago.
Speaker 1:I feel like it was six years ago when you came into my apartment and I remember your bed was like hanging off you and you were all chirpy coming in, of course you were. Six years then Actually no, no, maybe it was five years then that we met.
Speaker 3:I know that the company is only four years old, so it's got to be five years.
Speaker 1:No, no, you were definitely doing under the under the carpet stuff before that.
Speaker 3:I think maybe I think I could check after this. I'll check the diary. How well do you edit this?
Speaker 1:well, jack then when? When did we first meet?
Speaker 2:I met through, obviously, toby. Toby introduced you to me, but I feel like that was like four years I think we were like in dubai mall or something we called exactly where I was. It was. Yeah, it was like overlooking the like the birch yeah, it's very interesting, you were very interesting, but you were so outrageously chirpy it was crazy, like in a positive way it was like today when you just came jingling with your shoes like it was the same energy christmas style.
Speaker 1:It was christmas style, because I'm feeling a little bit homesick at the moment and, uh yeah, I feel like anything that would give me a bit of comfort yeah, you should have just gone full elf, that would have been a strong podcast. Well, I kind of feel like I'm in, like michael jackson mode irish as well.
Speaker 3:Today I've just got this thing in my head like little irish elves, that's leprechauns me ah well, they're almost the same right. Leprechauns mate Ah well, they're almost the same right, that's leprechauns, that is.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm very lucky that I have two therapists that are friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah, different types, but yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, well, Jack.
Speaker 2:I need to do my own intro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Jack didn't get to do his intro Do you want to have the mic there and just introduce yourself.
Speaker 2:Hello, I'm Jack. As I said, we've known each other for about four years now. I'm a psychologist based there and, obviously, dubai, and I run a company here as well, and you know what's actually interesting. I've actually just started. I'm not releasing anything yet, but you, you were the person who inspired me to do it and it's very interesting because mine's horrendous don't watch it's horrible, I'm just.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting how you're like mentally, if you like write a or stuff. It gets you in such a good space to like clarify your thoughts and understand things. So, yeah, you are the person who inspired me to do that.
Speaker 1:You're practicing life on the camera. I suppose it's mad yeah.
Speaker 2:And you realize how awkward you are in front of the camera. I'm doing like a solo one because I wanted to do stuff that was like not super educational, but like a bit more. Like you know, I'm trying to get a useful topic out and, yeah, it was just so awkward.
Speaker 3:So do you write your podcasts? Like all the ones I've been on, they've just been freeballed. This is well, today's a freeball.
Speaker 1:We're freeballing this right now, so uh like if you want to get some reference on today's podcast. Honestly speaking, I did want to just catch up with the lads this is scripted.
Speaker 1:We all have telephones um, but no, I never, I've never scripted a podcast and you know what I now apologies to any guests that I've had on, but, um, when they ask for questions, I'm like no, deep down inside I'm like no, I don't want, I don't want to have like a structured piece of work, like I literally want to go in and free flow and and just dig into someone you know authentically but I've asked that before the podcast that I've been on, I've asked, like, what do I need to prepare?
Speaker 3:but I think anybody that's not been on one before they come into it thinking well, what if I look silly, what if I get tongue-tied? What if I don't know the answers? What's the best and most streamlined answer to the questions that I might get asked? So like, I guess people want to use it as a platform to showcase themselves. So if there's prep, that's why I asked, so that I can prep for it but, um, like you said, there was that they freeball it.
Speaker 1:Well, they have an idea as to what they want to dive into, but it's much more of an organic it depends on the person, though, when you think about it, right, if someone is so confident in what they do, like they're not going to really give a shit what anyone else thinks about them. Let's be honest, like, even if they are speaking on a podcast, like they're it's, they're gonna just speak from the heart I also think that if you're an expert in what you do, you know about it, you can talk about it.
Speaker 3:You don't need to be prepped for a question. Like, if I ask Jack a question, I haven't got one to hand, but I'm sure if I'm asking him something and it's in his field and he is an expert and knows about it, he's going to be able to just reel it off. Similarly, if you ask are an expert or a leader in your field.
Speaker 1:Does this give me the entry point now to ask some questions that are going to make you feel really uncomfortable?
Speaker 3:I don't get awkward or embarrassed me ask away what questions you have for Toby. That would make you feel uncomfortable oh, I think you should direct them to me um, well, anyway, I want to start off with maybe a question for you, for like the most ridiculous.
Speaker 1:I think you should direct them to both screens as well. Well, anyway, I want to start off with maybe a question for you, for the most ridiculous client that you've had in Dubois over.
Speaker 3:The most ridiculous client. I've had some interesting clients over the last few years literally thousands of appointments and I've had very interesting studio apartment encounters with multiple men All the way through to porn star and adult entertainer clients asking if they can set up a camera.
Speaker 1:Can I stop this here for a second? There was one topic that I said we can't talk about today, and it was porn. No, that's just their profession.
Speaker 3:Okay, we can cut out porn star and we can put adult entertainer in there instead an adult entertainer that asked if they could set up a camera. Um, I've had a royal family from certain nations that are staying in dubai make special requests. Um, there's been some, some interesting encounters, yeah, some that have left me feeling a little bit dirty and awkward and others that have left me feeling very, uh, confident and empowered when you feel dirty and awkward from like a robe session, does that because I don't know what you want to call it massage therapy or physiotherapy?
Speaker 3:massage therapy I am a physiotherapist, but I sell massage, so yeah when we and my team come into our appointments, we are providing a sports massage treatment, but with the knowledge of somebody that has higher education. So I'm going to come into it with a different viewpoint, a different standpoint, a different approach. I'm going to ask the right questions. I'm going to have better anatomy knowledge. I'm going to have better physiology knowledge. I was an athlete so I understand how you might feel during the treatment. Just a whole host of additional pieces of knowledge and experience that maybe just a massage therapist won't have. So I would I tell my, my clients, my friends people I meet, that maybe just a massage therapist won't won't have.
Speaker 1:So I would I tell my, my clients, my friends people I meet, that I am a massage therapist, but with the additional degrees does that ever like put a bit of a rain cloud though over like your job when you come away from those clients that you're like, you've absolutely like ripped the piss now when you come away from a session that someone's kind of overstepped their mark so I'll tell you a story, if you want um I went I went to an appointment.
Speaker 3:Um and uh, when I arrived, the gentleman was very flamboyant when he opened the door, sat down on the sofa, very interested to view me entirely.
Speaker 3:When he sat down, kind of check me out, as I came in with my bag and I set everything up and I said that you can go and get me some towels please for the massage bed.
Speaker 3:So the guy goes away into the room, comes back out of the bedroom holding two towels he's not got any clothes on though, so I've got a strict no nudity policy in the business and I I quickly grab one of the towels and say oh, one of these is for you, give it to him. To wrap around, I take the other one, put it on the table, and the entire way through the treatment, every time I turned to get an oil bottle or a drink of water or some cups, the towel that was on top of him was on the floor, so I had to pick it up, replace it, et cetera, and so, yeah, leaving that appointment afterwards. I mean, I don't feel that objectified, I don't know, I'm kind of numb to it, but it just shows that in that type of industry you could be exposed to that type of thing do you know what?
Speaker 1:I feel like this is common in many different industries. So you know, like, because whether it just wears a different jacket, like as in when I worked in finance, often I would get clients who wanted to invest, but they didn't really want to invest in the company they wanted to invest in me because you're not spending as much time with us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jack, we haven't seen you in ages I've had some housewives that maybe their husbands are out of town a lot. They've had all of the work done but there's no one around to, I don't know, give them compliments or or see their body as much as they would want. So, like the women at home that have had everything done the teeth, the boobs, the bum and everything sometimes if I'm like, okay, I'll leave the room, you know, so that you can lie on the table, the clothes are already off and I don't get a chance to leave the room and a lot of these women they're not shy about just taking their robe off before I've had the chance to to say hold on.
Speaker 2:You're living in a movie.
Speaker 1:This is crazy, but you know what, being a, being a therapist though, don't you not? You obviously hear crazy things. You know some crazy stuff, yeah, but I feel like, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 2:it's a weird air because you gotta be a little bit more cautious like you gotta be super cautious like we have. It's a weird air because you've got to be a little bit more cautious, you've got to be super cautious. It's like emotional attachment is a really big thing in therapy. Where people are going through a difficult situation, you're someone who's there to Say they've gone through a breakup, for example. You're someone who's listening to them about their problems, their concerns. You may have been giving advice where it's appropriate. All that emotion just bundles onto you so you get a fateful message that's just like oh, like I don't know how to tell you this, but and it's kind of oh, yep, sorry, this is a trickly professional relationship, but that like happens.
Speaker 2:you know if you've had like a rebound before, you have like you come out of a relationship like all these, like bundled emotion, and it just fires onto someone else.
Speaker 3:That's what happens with therapy like a lot so people start to fall for you because essentially, you're the one giving them comfort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're so you're definitely still getting a bit of action here, like you might be getting verbal action.
Speaker 2:We're getting I mean, yeah, I mean, if you want to put it that way, yeah, but it is interesting, it's a, it's a very weird dynamic. But it's a weird dynamic. Right, therapy is a odd thing. You know, if you, if you've not had it before, and you talk to someone and they're like intently listening to you, like really oh my god, I must be brilliant and like you're.
Speaker 2:You're really like, focused on every word they say and you're picking up on such things. It feels like. It feels amazing to have someone listen to you. A lot of people like they're not fortunate enough to have amazing friendship groups so they've not experienced it before, so they experience it for the first time.
Speaker 1:They're like, oh my god, this is amazing do you think people aren't listening as much anymore as they did in the past?
Speaker 2:yeah, I see myself sometimes like I when I'm focused as like a therapist I'm like full-on switched on. Sometimes I have conversations with people.
Speaker 3:I'm like 20% there because I see it myself it's the scrolling culture right, you'll talk to your girlfriend and they'll be like yeah, babe and that must happen to everybody in every household.
Speaker 2:I was watching. One of my friends were chatting to me earlier and I was just watching a video of a dog climbing a ladder. You just figured out a way to climb ladders. This dog did on YouTube. And then I just I was like midway through a sentence and I just stopped speaking because I was just like I just zapped into my phone.
Speaker 3:There's a squirrel that can water ski as well.
Speaker 2:By the way, I've seen these as well. I've sent it to.
Speaker 3:Sophia.
Speaker 1:It's when she's on those. So so, but like right, do you think that's a lack of?
Speaker 2:self-discipline. Not listening and scrolling on your phone. Yeah, I also think it's like part of life now you know like you run a business you're you're doing lots of like. I'm on my phone all the time like my screen time is outrageous that was mine, what's yours? I've had, I would say I'm pretty consistently eight hours a day oh, yours is like double that, mine's like six, seven.
Speaker 3:Oh, what are you at?
Speaker 1:I can't even answer. I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, ours is up there like wait must be double. It's definitely double mine. I'm on like six, seven hours a day, but mine, what's yours?
Speaker 2:16? Maybe more you might as well plug into neuralink right now you are full on like or get those google glasses where? You can just see everything no, no, right.
Speaker 1:No, there was one day 16 hours is mental, it was 17 and a half one day how I'm not even awake that long. Yeah, no, it was, it was really bad. Uh, I actually caught myself. It was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was about a week ago, and sorry to interrupt, but how physically like can you do what like? Are you watching netflix on your phone or no?
Speaker 1:who has time for netflix nowadays, like? I just don't even have that possibly be on your phone or no. Who has time for Netflix nowadays, like?
Speaker 2:I just don't even have that possibly be on your phone, oh like it was.
Speaker 1:It was just one week where, like, I was just doing multiple different jobs and like, yeah, I don't know, I really stretch, I stretch the fabric on life and I don't know I think, uh, in the evening time I get really creative, but then I'm a morning person as well.
Speaker 1:So it's, it was a conflict of interest, so you're just not sleeping um yeah, I am like I'm sleeping as many hours as I can, um, but yeah, the other week was not a good week for for sleep and I just had so many things I wanted to do and just, yeah, my screen time was up because I was downloading podcasts, I was editing, I was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, is it?
Speaker 1:things that you want to do or things that you need to do, or things that you feel like you need to do. It's a measure of things I want, things I need, things that I really don't want to do. Like it's a measure of everything, like I'm working within the parameters of the time that I should be working in for my actual job. And then outside that, then it's like all the external stuff.
Speaker 2:Plus I'm writing a book.
Speaker 1:I'm finishing writing my book. I'm 30 pages away now.
Speaker 2:Okay, so is that including like laptop time as well? That's 17 hours, yeah, okay no that was one day.
Speaker 1:Right now, I promise it was one day. I've gotten it down to 14, 14.
Speaker 2:You dug the hole you are in.
Speaker 1:That is crazy oh, you know, that might be a record. No, no, like, listen, right, it was last week. Like boy, I do think like if I look at last week and my happiness level, I would say my happiness level was definitely down from that amount of screen time. So, like I I know that it needs to change for sure, like I don't think any human should be on their laptop or a device for 17 hours a day do you have blue light glasses?
Speaker 3:no, I don't. Christmas is coming I did buy a pair right. And they came and it was like off some like chinese website, and they were like jam jars when I put them on and like I kind of did like them, but then people like you have yeah, they were probably normal size glasses, but she just got a small head so they look massive I don't have a small head. This is the thing. I have a huge head Toby. You've got a wide head though.
Speaker 2:I'm just wide.
Speaker 1:I have a huge head Like. Honestly, I don't think anyone realizes that until I actually try on glasses.
Speaker 3:Okay, we'll agree to disagree.
Speaker 2:That's mad. Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:So tell me this actually right, so like screen time when you're with a client or anyone like. How much does that impact someone's mental health? Have you seen? What do you mean do? You have any research on people, or for me yeah, people in general, or like anything you've read, like, do you think, like what would be the base sign for it?
Speaker 2:destroys you. It absolutely destroys your brain. You know people function well like with real dopamine. You know when you're getting this like almost like this kind of fake version of it. It's just it's not the same. You you get the same immediate response, but you don't get the long-term effects of it. So if you're just supplementing yourself with like this fix all the time, it just destroys your brain.
Speaker 1:You just completely deplete your dopamine stores well, when you're saying, just destroys your brain, like, is that like on a temporary basis or is it because? Because there's something that I've noticed when I go away on holidays, right, my screen time is massively down because I stick my phone in somewhere and I'm like I want to explore, I want to go on an adventure, and I noticed the first three days it's like I feel like, well, I'd imagine like a heroin addict, right, going off heroin, and it's like you feel like, oh, you want to check your phone, but then you're like like I'm going to explore, I want to be present, and then I'm completely depleted in actually checking my phone, that I'm in this like mellow state. I feel not like nice and calm, and that's when I'm like I want to bundle this up and bring it back to Dubai, like.
Speaker 3:But then I feel like I'm getting pleasure out of the simple things way more so there must be two things that affect mental health when it comes to screen time. Right, because you you were just talking about the physiological effects of like dopamine release and getting that sort of instant satisfaction or gratification, but there's also what's on the screen and what people are consuming in terms of absorbing a fake reality of somebody else or comparing. So, like how, what's the kind of the relevance of, of the difference between the physiological difference and then what?
Speaker 3:like what you're consuming?
Speaker 1:well, actually, do you know what? There's a point on this as well, because I think I've heard you mention this before where, like when you're talking about what you watch and what you see and what you hear, how much of that actually has a subconscious input on your brain? When you're listening to something but you're not actively listening, how much of that feeds into your brain?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:Like you know, your reality is based on your intention and your attention, like, where your attention is is how your brain functions I like that so like, if you're, it doesn't matter what if it's real or if it's not real, you know there'll be a moment where reality is indistinguishable from not reality. So, whatever you're seeing, whether it's a skateboarding, like squirrel, all these things are like feeding into you in terms of how you perceive reality. So like you know. That's why when you're younger and like obviously childhood affection, all that stuff went over to that. But when you're younger and you're seeing stuff, all your attention of like in the household, because it's having such a big scale impact on your life, because that's like a hundred percent of your time yeah, it has huge effects later down the line it's the same with.
Speaker 2:If you're watching screen time, if you think like you, that day spent what? Seven and a half hours, so your, your brain's concept of reality is mostly digital, like that. If, for that day, your brain's like version of reality is mostly related to something that you've seen, that's a digital thing that's not real, so like it's pretty crazy that's pretty dark I mean, yeah, but it's true, but it but it is part of reality and I like we can't shy away from it, but it's just.
Speaker 1:It's something that people have to be super conscious of because there's so many elements to it yeah, I think the more you go on social media and technology, at the more you're detaching yourself away from having Building deeper connections with people as well.
Speaker 2:It's crazy as well. When we went to a Lula, there was this. There was this like rock face. Yeah, lula places Saudi Arabia. Both went to. There's this rock face, yeah, and these people have shown us. Right then, if you do this as well, I like, because we're so used to phones and we have such vibrancy of color all the time this guy was like okay, look at this rock face, it's just like a brown rock face. You're like what this guy's nuts, why is he showing me this stupid rock face? And then you close your eyes and you look down and you become like deprived of sensory input for like five minutes. You open your eyes and it's like vivid colors. It's crazy, it's like did you do.
Speaker 3:I never went to there, but I do I. I remember a golden wall like a golden river over the side of a rock face.
Speaker 2:But remember that dude called banda yes him, he went, he took us on, like these big like what's the old school jeeps. The defenders are the dune, the dune, buggies, oh I didn't go.
Speaker 1:Oh, tell me this because I remember you telling me a story about you was it crying.
Speaker 2:Oh my yeah, I did get extremely emotional.
Speaker 3:I want to talk about this. I want to talk about this, please, because I, because you know what, know what.
Speaker 1:This is a story that I just never really forget, because it just goes to show that how these things, like when you remove devices away, you can really feel emotion.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I wanted to explain that we were in Alula in Saudi Arabia, which is a beautiful farm district of Saudi, where it was an orange farm. We were like on an orange and banana farm and the rock faces are all like deep in red canyon, like in the Arizona desert, and there's loads of very much sand everywhere. You're in the desert but it's there's oasis of you can open.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to open it. Yeah, I can't get it open.
Speaker 3:There's a like an oasis of uh palm trees and everything else, and it was it was the um, the location of a wellness retreat, um, and I came out for like four or five days to be part of the retreat and to manage the massage team. And on the penultimate night, I think, there was a uh, a dance or what was the?
Speaker 3:it was a music it was like ecstatic dance, ecstatic dance yeah, so there was an ecstatic dance, um, and music workshop where, um, there were no phones, we were inside a tent, it was night time, it was in the desert and, uh, everybody was inside.
Speaker 3:There must have been 20 to 30 people in there and we just had to be in one place with our eyes closed and the music started, um, and then there was a lady narrating the sort of the music and how we should be feeling and what we need to be doing.
Speaker 3:So we're stood still, keep your eyes closed, wave your arms, just feel the rhythm of the music. The music's now going to go a little bit faster. It's going to start to take you somewhere, and the music does take you along a journey that starts to sort of speed up, slow down, it gets exciting, it then calms down and the whole way we're being, uh, kind of directed by this lady on the microphone, um, and then after a few minutes we open our eyes but don't say anything, and you can see everybody is just like moving around and dancing to this music, um, and there's all kinds of different types of people in this room, people that you usually wouldn't expect to be kind of dancing in a room, of what almost feels like a kind of hippie experience, um and I'm particularly um, what's the word like?
Speaker 3:dubious, about sort of um meditation and um yeah grounding to the earth, and all that kind of stuff, you know um, I'm much more of a sort of science-based kind of guy.
Speaker 3:Anyways, as this went on and this spiritual experience went on which is never really something that I've thought about being involved in um, we started to move around the room. Again, you weren't allowed to talk, but we were just listening to the to the music and dancing between each other. And then, as the music started to slow down, wherever we were in the room, we were told to sit down, um, and then close your eyes and then lie down. And then, as we were laid down, the music started to change again and the lady's continuing to narrate and she's like, if there's any emotions or anything that you're feeling, just let out. And it was weird.
Speaker 3:My chin just started like wobbling and like my bottom lip started going and then I just started like crying. I don't know why. I just started like very emotionally crying, almost to the point where it was like but I wasn't making a noise, I wasn't wailing, I wasn't crying out loud, but I was like crying and very emotional to myself and my eyes were going, my nose was going, my chin was still wobbling and then, at the end of the experience this is the strangest part for me the lady that was narrating the experience said now, if there's anyone in the room that you feel like and we're still not looking at each other, our eyes are shut if there's anyone in the room that you feel like you need to go towards or gravitate towards, to touch, to say hello, to hug them, do it now. And most of the room instantly came to me and like, hugged me and I was surrounded by people hugging me. It was the most bizarre and surreal experience and I can't explain it.
Speaker 1:Super weird why do you think he was crying like from a therapist's point of?
Speaker 2:view. I'm a bit like. I'm a bit skeptical of stuff that's too spiritual, like airy fairy stuff, because I'm a bit more rooted in science.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of the time I still feel like you're a little bit all right, a little very I'm a little very All right fine, super, I'm full, very, very.
Speaker 2:You're very, very. But I think the reason that people have these moments the same way that if you go into a therapy session, if you go into meditation is these place, these people hold space for you to be vulnerable. You know you're running a business, you're just getting about your day the whole time. You've got all these things happening stress, stress, stress, stress. You never have a pocket to be vulnerable. You have that moment where the build-up allows you to get into a certain space where you're like I can really let go now, and you did, and like that's stored in you.
Speaker 2:Like one of the things about emotion is emotion can't be destroyed. So like you have to work through emotion. So if you don't work, if you don't work through it, it'll either certainly sabotage your life forever or it will come out in a big bundle like that. And I guess that's what you experience, because I was watching it from the outside and it was like what toby just tried literally everyone just morphed towards him. It was the weirdest thing to observe from the outside. It was funny as all, because all like the people from, uh, like, who are running the event were there and like the bubble, like outside looking in. They're like what is happening in there and everyone was just swarmed around toby and it's I tell the story a bit because toby's like a macho dude. He's stacked, look at him and it's crazy how just in that moment it was just like that vulnerability comes out. But all of us have it in us. It's just having that pocket.
Speaker 1:I've had episodes like this on on the yoga mat and now I actually think that you've just hit the nail on the head with creating space away from a busy lifestyle not actually being able to just relax, and kind of release I suppose.
Speaker 3:So it's like a sense of really a release, I think so how important is that for highly functioning people, high achievers, business people, entrepreneurs, ceos to allow that to happen, and do people need to do it? Is there something that will happen if you don't find that space, because I'd imagine there's a lot of people out there that are high achievers or are in high stress and they never have that area of vulnerability or is it a case of like when you cry in your Ferrari, you know?
Speaker 2:it's difficult because a lot of people they don't have the choice, like a lot of people, when they come to therapy and they're worried about work-life balance. Some people don't have the option to have a work-life balance if you're responsible for hundreds of people in a business.
Speaker 2:These people have got to pay their mortgages based on what you do. You don't have an option to not be 100% there, to be 100% present. So those people can function well. Like there's high functioning individuals, you're probably one of them. You're probably one of them who can function for a long period of time, but the fundamental rule that emotion can't be destroyed is true.
Speaker 2:So what will either happen is you'll either become numb to emotion and it will start to affect your relationships, your is. You'll either become numb to emotion and it will start to affect your relationships, your lifestyle you'll just start to become really numb to it, or you won't be numb to it, you'll store it and then it will certainly sabotage your life. That's what happens with me all the time. Sometimes I work so hard, I have like a bundle of emotion. I don't really address it and then it just affects me in other ways. So unless you have that pocket of time to address what's happened, it will just keep coming how does it affect you if you don't?
Speaker 2:just destroy relationships. I'm just.
Speaker 1:I'm the best self-sabotager in the world so the last time I was chatting to you you were like seeing some girl from bali.
Speaker 2:So yeah, absolutely not from bali. But yeah, I mean it's like it's interesting because I was. I chatted with people about this at the time, like this was the first time. I've always been quite toxic in relationships. Just because I'm busy, this is not going to click well some of them are just I'm toxic. Why?
Speaker 3:are you still single podcast in 2024?
Speaker 2:yeah so, but I am a nightmare, so I just the problem is like I just get smash them out. Go for it do you want? Some. No, I'm good, I've got some nuts over it. Keep going, I'm listening, but I, I, just I. I think, because of like life experiences, we all have particular like attachment styles. Um, and yeah, I'm a pretty like, probably like anxious attached person. So I'll either go one way where I'm kind of like explain.
Speaker 1:I'm anxious.
Speaker 2:Attached so like I'm very I used to be very like needy for the person because I require a lot of tension all the time where does that come from? So it depends really. It can you know when you're young.
Speaker 1:I'm trying not to use laughing over there, I thought you were going to throw my teaser in her mouth. Every time I crunch, it's on my ears.
Speaker 2:Don't crunch in the mic, don't. To be fair, that was a poor choice of snack from you. We need less crunchy snacks. It's going to be us just like.
Speaker 1:It was nine minutes before the podcast. I was downstairs and the news agent's going in.
Speaker 2:Go on, what was I talking about? I can agents going in? Go on, there's a nice thing. What was I talking about? I can't remember. Oh yeah, why do people gain or become anxious or have their anxious attachment stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so throughout your life you have like formative years. So you have this is usually between one to seven some people say it's a little bit longer, from like zero to 15. And because, like those years you're trying, you're a blank slate and you're trying to understand reality, right, how people interact with you emotionally affect your understanding of reality. So obviously, when you're young, you just have your household and then you, that's how you understand reality. So how your parents interact with each other, how your siblings interact with you, that's your understanding the whole world, because that's all you've ever experienced. Then you'll have like a smaller friendship group, maybe a nursery, so you start to build this emotional understanding of how things work.
Speaker 2:Then you'll have like crisis events which will be like, oh, that first person who broke your heart. They'll really affect you in a big way. So then you start to learn how you need to be, to not feel hurt anymore, because your brain is a problem-solving machine and all it's trying to do is. It's trying to protect you. It doesn't care how functional you are, most of the time it just cares about protecting you. So it's just trying to think oh mate, this was really bad, you've just had your heart broken. We need to sort this out. So it will just figure out a way where you can protect yourself from it. So that will lead to a different form of attachment style, but that can shift. So I was like kind of quite an anxious attached person, so I was quite requiring of attention. If people didn't mess what's happening, what are they doing when they cheat on me? That's who I would be.
Speaker 1:And then I, when you just mentioned cheating there, like, do you think sometimes that can be a byproduct of like what you've been doing previously before as well? What do you mean to have like trust issues, because I feel like everyone often says like, oh, you will tell some or you will be conscious of someone cheating on you because you've cheated on someone else. She just asked if you were a cheater no, on top of being toxic, yeah, I know I actually muddled my words up.
Speaker 1:He's my narrator there, no, but like yeah. They often say like oh, when someone has trust issues and they're asking you are you cheating on them?
Speaker 2:it's often because they're doing it themselves yeah, I mean people who people are worried about trust a a also. You've got you know reality of life. You know you see all these programs in the uk like made in chelsea and you're seeing guys cheat or not, vice versa, all the time. So your understanding of relatives are cheating like is a little bit normal. And then when most people, when they're a little bit younger, they might be a little bit insecure. When you're insecure, you either get cheated on or people cheat on you, sorry, or you cheat. So it's like one one extreme of the other. So that's where it usually stems from.
Speaker 2:Like for me, when I was a little bit younger, I was a little bit insecure. So I like dated the most beautiful girl in school. I was like smashing out of the park phenomenal. But then I did cheat when I was like 17. But it wasn't because this person wasn't a lovely person, it's because I was so insecure. I was like, oh my god, there's so much beautiful girl in school and I was like I'm like a normal person and it was that insecurity of like oh my god, this person's gonna cheat on me. So I have to almost like do it first. So then that kind of leads into then how you start to understand relationships and reality and stuff like that when you talked about like self-sabotaging earlier, though do you think self-sabotaging comes as a byproduct of lacking self-confidence?
Speaker 2:potentially. I think. I think it's a lot to do with just unaddressed things in your life. I think that tends to be where self-sabotage comes from. If you've not addressed something that's important, that's impacted who you are as a person, it's, of course, going to affect your life, like we aren't here by coincidence, like you aren't new because of just a random, or it's because you've learned from all these experiences from your life. You've not consciously learned, but things have happened to you where your brain's gone. I don't want to feel that again. Or it's gone, oh, I do want to feel that again. So then you start to build a personality out of that. So then you become this person and you have these patterns and behaviors based on all the things that you've learned throughout your life. So you have to address why you are how you are. Unless you, unless you just don't want to change, if you want to stay the same, you can just chill and you can just be like what are the different love attachment styles then?
Speaker 1:when it comes to like no, I I want to know, like, well, I I do know the the basics, but like, just name them off to the listener it's the thing is, it's difficult because there's there's like four different books on this yeah and there's.
Speaker 2:There's four main ones and then there's four sub ones of those. So, in general, the the ones that will be relevant to most people is you tend to be like one of two you'll be avoidant so avoidant, attachment, attachment style, or you'll be anxious avoidant.
Speaker 2:That'll be like the main two that people will understand and like kind of resonate with, because people tend to have a situation where they are very avoidant of their partners but and that can stem from many, many different things. So they'll have, they'll be in their own world and they'll want what they want from the person, but then they won't want to give much more than that they have people like me, who formerly was like anxious, so you're just worried.
Speaker 2:You're like, what's they doing? If you're not getting constant gratification, you're not having someone constantly validate what's happening in the relationship, you feel like you're on a you know thin ice. You feel like the ice is going to crack underneath you immediately. A lot of people, I think, tend to feel those two.
Speaker 2:The other ones are a little bit more obscure that people don't really feel as often yeah, do you think some of these attachment styles are a bit of like a oh, let's throw you in that box yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like the thing is with, like when, if you're a physio, you know you can have an MRI and you can go look, you've got this little problem here and you can see this is a lateral collateral ligament issue or whatever. You can see exactly what it is and you can really understand it. Obviously there's variance in that with the mind, like it's a subjective experience that we're all having, so you can have a brain scan that will help us identify things, but in general it's like adhd. Right, adhd is like a huge topic. Everyone's like got adhd. I feel like I've got adhd. You probably feel like you've got adhd.
Speaker 2:You probably feel like you've got ADHD. You probably feel like you've got ADHD, you probably feel like you've got it. But the reality is it's just a loads of different kind of traits that you might have and they just create a box. The box is an imaginary box. It's not a real, tangible box that you could feel or touch and it would hurt. It's a imaginary box. It's an elusive box and you can swing in and out of that box.
Speaker 2:You know, you've got a thing like for me at least. Sometimes I'm varying different types of people throughout the day you know like sometimes in the morning I'm in top-notch mood. Something will happen. I'll be in a lower mood, then something will happen, I'll be in a better mood. My mood will vary throughout the day. If I did a different test for adhd throughout those different times, I might categorize differently.
Speaker 2:Some people will be like, like I would say like probably all of us are probably high functioning adhd technically, on paper yeah but a lot of people have, like, really, really extreme adhd, where it's like this is this is affecting your life in a big way and they're not functional. That's where, like diagnosis is actually important. For most of the people, they don't really need to be diagnosed you, yeah, go on, I was just I was gonna ask.
Speaker 3:so like to handle these things handle maybe not being the correct word to treat or to aid with these things in my job, if there's an issue or an injury, typically there are certain protocols. So, like you said, uh, an x-ray and an MRI will show an anatomical issue or a physiological issue, if there is one and it's black or white, like there is a tibia fracture or there is not. With anatomy often it's yes or no. You're right or wrong a lot of the time and then with certain injuries there may be multiple different protocols. But usually you end up trickling into the protocol for ACL rehab or the protocol for shoulder impingement and although there are lots of different protocols, there is essentially a step-by-step guide that is typically followed by the masses because it helps for the masses. But I guess for your job, are there protocols helps for the masses, but I guess for your job that are there protocols like there are okay for this? This is the steps we take, or is it very much like completely?
Speaker 2:custom. So there are protocols that you would follow. But if you think about us through here, like, you've probably had a million experiences that I can't even begin to understand because they're unique to you, they're your subjective experience. So unless someone is able to delve deep into your subjective experience that you've gone through, it's hard to categorize. Like, if you have an injury and you've twisted your knee in a certain way, you've got a really obvious mechanism of injury, whereas with like therapy, you know we could all get broken up with but it could be a different type of pain that we experience and even that could be slightly different. So there's so many variables that are involved.
Speaker 2:In general, the way to go about therapy is understanding the story that you have, identifying the story that you identify with, so then you can start to navigate and be the the captain of that story, as opposed to being the victim of that story. So in general you need to understand that the story aspect of it. But in terms of actual like diagnosable things, there's clinical stuff which is like serious stuff where you are in like the top five percentile of a box, which means you are not functional. If you are not functional and you're not able to go about your day-to-day life. That is where there will be like specific protocols that you have to go through, which is quite like heavy, sometimes that will lead into medication. But there will be like protocols that you go through, like, for example, with adhd.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you're you've you all do this already.
Speaker 2:If you exercise a lot and you have a really clear focus of exercise and you have routine and you get sleep and you remove as much caffeine as possible I know we're a little bit guilty of that sometimes you remove caffeine, you don't drink, you don't do drugs.
Speaker 2:If you do that as the baseline and also if you have a creative outlet very important if you do that as a baseline, your symptoms will decrease in a huge way. But it's if you're able to do that, so that would be like the general thing manage like all the things. Like the same way that you know, with physio a lot of people think oh, like you know, I just need to do the massage part, I just need to the exercise part. It's a whole all-encompassing approach. You know you have to have a humanistic approach to the person. Then you can start to actually solve the problem of them. And it's's the same with these type of things, you'll have a baseline set of things that, if you optimize these, the effects of the way your brain works will be lesser and you can potentially be more functional.
Speaker 1:I hope that makes sense when you're talking there, though, about a protocol that you follow, I'd say, in a lot of your cases as well. Some of it is psychological.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big thing Psychological injuries Because even there as well, some of it is psychological. Oh yeah, psychological injuries because even they, there's like a study done on people who've had knee surgery and it's not actually knee surgery. They go under anesthetic and it's a placebo effect and they still have shown that they've had the same outcome as someone having a knee replacement yeah, I mean placebo is very.
Speaker 3:It is a is a type of medication, it is a type of protocol that's used.
Speaker 1:Nobody has got hands.
Speaker 3:Psychology is a huge part of overcoming an issue or an injury or even developing one, like, for example, let's say, I'm with a runner and they've got an event coming up and I'm giving them a sports massage and I'm like, oh, your calf feels a bit tight. They've not had any issues with their calf the whole way up to this event, but oh, toby said, my calf's feeling a little tight. And then they go out for a run. They go oh you know what, mike, I think my calf is tight, and then all of a sudden they've got a little niggle. And then all of a sudden they've got Achilles tendonitis and actually clinical, uh like diagnosable tendinitis has occurred. Um, just from that little uh niggle in their brain. That that I've, that I've seen before.
Speaker 1:But there's also the other way of of so like to not put you out of business. Why don't you tell them? Why don't you tell them that everything feels great in you right now, like so you have to.
Speaker 3:You have to be like that as well. For example, I just worked with um, a world championship mma fighter, and he was fighting for a world championship belt last weekend.
Speaker 1:Um name drop. Name drop, uh, brendan lochnane uh, from the pfl.
Speaker 3:Did he, did he do? Well, he didn't win, he didn't win. I knew I. I asked you this? You didn't answer me actually, but I couldn't tell you I couldn't tell anyone I, I didn't win, he didn't win, I knew I. I asked you this. You didn't answer me actually, but I couldn't tell you, I couldn't tell anyone I.
Speaker 3:I didn't see it on social media like a big, fantastic win, so I just had a view he had a, a knee niggle or a knee issue before the fight, um, and he did it in his last sparring in thailand before he came to dubai. Came to dubai, I saw him, I gave him some treatment, we assessed it. I read his mri. The mri was actually pretty unremarkable but because he had heard a snap or a pop and it gave him a bit of initial pain, um, he thought, oh my god, there's a major knee issue. So I read the scan, I did some treatment, I spoke to another physio colleague of mine who had also assessed him and we decided that it was pretty much in his head and it's a bit like the issue he had was. Imagine you step off the curb and you roll your ankle and you think, oh no, I've sprained my ankle and it's sore for that day and you walk it off and then the next day you wake up.
Speaker 3:It's a bit stiff in the morning but you still go to the gym and then the day after that you get up and you go for a run and you've completely forgotten that you sprained your ankle and had a sore ankle and then the rest of the days you don't have an issue. This was exactly the same type of sprain that brendan had in his knee, but in his head there was a sprain, there was an issue, there was an injury. I also was working with a with a fighter um who had a boxing match in saudi, chris ubank jr. I did some work on him just a couple of days before he flew to saudi for his previous fight that he won. He had a shoulder injury, he had a shoulder issue, but as I was giving him his treatment, I told him you know, it's just a little bit of tightness, we'll do a few movements, it'll be okay, there'll be no issues.
Speaker 3:And he went away. When he got to saudi he messaged me, said I'm feeling it a little bit, I gave him some advice and he went out and he won the fight no shoulder issue at all, but he actually had an injury. So psychology in the way that you uh push the injuries or the way that you speak to the person on the on the treatment table is very important. It has a huge effect on what people feel or they say thoughts go into feelings, right yeah, but I mean chronic pain is like the biggest, I guess, thing.
Speaker 2:Example of that physio, chronic pain is crazy how it works. Like I mean you, you know about it, but when people have like chronic pain, they've had pain for an extended period of time. They've done every different test under the book to check a certain area. There's no like physiological thing wrong with them, but they're experiencing real pain yeah because pain is a perception of the body, so it's not like a.
Speaker 2:You know. Pain isn't like a tangible thing. It's your body going oh, this thing isn't working properly. So it shoots a message to your brain. It goes ah, don't do that. So you feel pain, so you don't move it. Like, essentially is like a pain mechanism, but like, yeah, chronic pain is crazy the more you endure.
Speaker 1:Pain, though is, do you find your tolerance, mentally, exceeds a different level?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's crazy. I went I because I used to be a physio, obviously before, that was like my prior and we used to do this thing in clinic where we do like the vat scale so you say like zero to ten. Every single person you meet will be like so zero is like no pain whatsoever ten is like the worst pain you can imagine.
Speaker 2:Everyone's like it's an 11, oh god. But they're just like talking to you like normal and then they'll be like it's 11 out of 10. So we I had to start describing it as like okay, zero is like no pain whatsoever. 10 is getting eaten by a bear. So they had to like put it into perspective, because everyone thinks their pain is like exceedingly. In general, I guess you probably see that as what exceedingly worse than it actually is.
Speaker 1:But like now, you can obviously see people are running, like one of my friends just ran 560 kilometers at Kite Beach.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you saw that.
Speaker 2:I saw that on your story. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Isn't that just mental? How many days was that over? It was within a week. He did it. Um, another guy that I'm friends with as well, um had done like 900k. So like, enduring that type of pain, does that stretch the fabrics of what you can, like you can mentally take and like, does that bring your baseline up to extreme levels?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it does. I see a lot of people that are in pain and actually the pain that they receive. If you were to instantly put that on someone else, they drop to the floor.
Speaker 3:But they're used to it and it becomes normal, everyday pain. Similarly like imagine you're, I don't know, you get a stitch right when you run. And you get a stitch, think, oh, that's pretty sore. But if you were sat right now and instantly you felt that stitch pain, you'd think you're about to die. You think there's something massively wrong with you. So it's about you, right? So it's about sort of, uh, perspective or environment when you receive pain as well as, like what's in your, what's in your head?
Speaker 2:yeah, I had a. I had a girlfriend once and she, she was like, she gave me like a. You know the period pain simulator you ever tried that?
Speaker 3:yeah, jesus christ, what the hell it's basically, you know, those things that used to stick on your abs, that gave you electric shocks, that gave you a six-pack without even either one of those things.
Speaker 1:I hear, like what I hate to say but what women are you dating? I was probably an extra toxic, honestly't even honestly.
Speaker 2:So like I think I just didn't understand it. She was like explaining things to me. I was like, how does this hurt so much? She got this. It's like agony. I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna die. But it was interesting because like she was just chill with it.
Speaker 3:She was just like that version of pain was just the same just putting out there, but it was like agony it's conceptual right because, um, if, uh, if you have a baby right and and it's supposed to be one of the most painful experiences it could be right childbirth but, many, many, many women will go. Yeah, I'll have another baby, I'll do it again if I kick you in the balls.
Speaker 3:You ain't saying to me toby, please kick me in the balls again, so never again. I'm not saying that being kicked in the balls is more painful than childbirth, but you guys keep wanting to have more kids and you will never ask me to kick you in the nuts again on the ball kicking subject.
Speaker 1:We're coming to the end of this little get together. So, um, because it's the detached podcast, I like to ask all my guests, guests, guests. What would you detach yourself away from that's? Limiting you today, jack first.
Speaker 3:I introduced myself first.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the question was what would I detach myself?
Speaker 3:I can't speak.
Speaker 2:Smash out a cough, strain for the mic. You're a pro podcaster.
Speaker 1:So what would I detach myself? What would?
Speaker 2:I detach myself from. I think I have such a yearning to like, feel, connection, like in terms of that affects, like business sometimes because I'm like sometimes I'm like very focused, I'm very in it and I have this like kind of like I say like almost like an addictive yearning sometimes towards like hanging out with people all the time. I think there's obviously healthy levels to that, but it's something that sometimes I wish I could just switch off for a moment so I could focus on things that were more temporarily important to me.
Speaker 1:I think I would detach myself from people pleasing and trying to live up to other people's expectations of myself and leave it to to me and not worry about what other people are are thinking or maybe not, and probably not thinking of me I'm really gonna hold you to that now, because I feel like I've witnessed this, but you're getting better I'm getting better you're getting better, okay, guys. Thank you for jumping onto the detached podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you for jumping onto the Detached Podcast. Thank you, end of that that's such a weird episode.
Speaker 1:Thank you,